A Silver Lining Under Ford's Dark Cloud Of Transmission Failures

[littlehulkster]

Originally Posted by pezzy669
Originally Posted by littlehulkster

Regardless, the terminology is still probably incorrect, yeah. Hydraulic automatic? Conventional automatic? One of those is probably better. That said, CVTs can be made reliable. The Prius is a shining example of that.


The Prius (and I think most Hybrid CVT) is an entirely different design from the non-hybrid CVT drivelines. It's a planetary gear set vs the metal belt drive of your run of the mill metal belt CVT's.


The ironic thing is Toyota's system is considerably more complex than most, and yet still considerably more reliable. Not just in the Prius, either, there have been enormous Lexus limousines with over 400HP that use the same system, and have no real problems. It goes to show it can be done, if the automaker cares enough to do it right.

Also worth pointing out that the CVT is banned in Formula One, because cars so equipped were too fast. It turns out the "boring" CVT can be quite a monster on the track if it's tuned for it.

 

[slacktide_bitog]

Originally Posted by littlehulkster


The ironic thing is Toyota's system is considerably more complex than most, and yet still considerably more reliable. Not just in the Prius, either, there have been enormous Lexus limousines with over 400HP that use the same system, and have no real problems. It goes to show it can be done, if the automaker cares enough to do it right.

Also worth pointing out that the CVT is banned in Formula One, because cars so equipped were too fast. It turns out the "boring" CVT can be quite a monster on the track if it's tuned for it.

 

[emg]

Originally Posted by littlehulkster
There might be some others, but I know VAG, BMW, Honda and (some) Toyotas don't.


As I understand it, Honda started out using a clutch pack in their CVT, but switched to a torque convertor because the clutches kept failing.

 

[CR94]

Originally Posted by littlehulkster
Originally Posted by pezzy669
... The Prius (and I think most Hybrid CVT) is an entirely different design from the non-hybrid CVT drivelines. It's a planetary gear set vs the metal belt drive of your run of the mill metal belt CVT's.
The ironic thing is Toyota's system is considerably more complex than most, and yet still considerably more reliable. ...
The sort of planetary "e-CVT" used by Toyota (and Ford) is mechanically much simpler than a conventional stepped-ratio automatic. The software and inverters controlling it are complex.

 

[littlehulkster]

Originally Posted by CR94
Originally Posted by littlehulkster
Originally Posted by pezzy669
... The Prius (and I think most Hybrid CVT) is an entirely different design from the non-hybrid CVT drivelines. It's a planetary gear set vs the metal belt drive of your run of the mill metal belt CVT's.
The ironic thing is Toyota's system is considerably more complex than most, and yet still considerably more reliable. ...
The sort of planetary "e-CVT" used by Toyota (and Ford) is mechanically much simpler than a conventional stepped-ratio automatic. The software and inverters controlling it are complex.


I was comparing it to other CVTs, not conventional automatics.

 

[Hootbro]

This guy has a pretty good video on the issue. He is a lemon law attorney in Michigan and has dealt with the issue directly.

Basically Ford is not going to do a thing to fix these and has bamboozled NHTSA that these transmissions are not a recall issue and Ford is just buying their time for them to age out of warranty. Ford knew of the issue before production and just kicked the can down the road and sent them out anyway.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted by littlehulkster

Also worth pointing out that the CVT is banned in Formula One, because cars so equipped were too fast. It turns out the "boring" CVT can be quite a monster on the track if it's tuned for it.


It's funny how people pick and choose their arguments because if you bring up Fiat's Multiair engine, which has hydraulically actuated intake valves and has no throttle plate, which is an F1 developed tech as well, you will not see any praises.

But I think it has more to do with the name of the company that uses it, than F1, same goes for the CVT. Before Toyota and Honda got into CVT, they were considered junk despite their extremely short F1 appearance.


Speaking of F1, Renault never even run a full grand prix race with it, so how do we know the CVT would perform overall?

 

[Pew]

If you can get the last MY focus that had an actual auto trans, you'll probably get it for a steal considering how hard all the Mk3/3.5s are tanking in price.

 

[WylieCoyote]

A steal is still too expensive considering how much time it will spend in the shop, with no real fix being applied.

 

[E365]

Originally Posted by WylieCoyote
A steal is still too expensive considering how much time it will spend in the shop, with no real fix being applied.


He's saying the 2016+ Focus' with the 1.0 EcoBoost have a standard automatic (non DCT) and are trouble free. No "time in the shop". You get a better engine than the 2.0, and much better transmission than the DCT.

 

[Pew]

Originally Posted by E365
Originally Posted by WylieCoyote
A steal is still too expensive considering how much time it will spend in the shop, with no real fix being applied.


He's saying the 2016+ Focus' with the 1.0 EcoBoost have an standard automatic (non DCT) and are trouble free. You get a better engine than the 2.0, and much better transmission than the DCT.


That, and the last MY focus came with an actual auto trans instead of the DCT iirc, or was that europe-only that got switched from their (good) DCT to the auto?

But in general, I agree with the 'steal' with the DCT. Too much issues and too much unknown to even buy a bargain-binned DCT focus even if ford said they finally "fixed" the issue (7 years later.....)

 

[badtlc]

Originally Posted by littlehulkster

Also worth pointing out that the CVT is banned in Formula One, because cars so equipped were too fast. It turns out the "boring" CVT can be quite a monster on the track if it's tuned for it.


The CVT was banned but not for reasons spouted on this board so regularly.

 

[PWMDMD]

Originally Posted by littlehulkster
Take: The double clutch is the worst of both worlds and is pretty much entirely pointless outside of race cars.



The 7-speed DCT in my 2014 Audi S5 was awesome with super fast and smooth up and down shifts.

 

[Silverado12]

Yeah you have to watch what you buy with Ford. Toyota has a lawsuit on their CVTs in the Corolla BTW.

 

[zzyzzx]

Originally Posted by Silverado12
Toyota has a lawsuit on their CVTs in the Corolla BTW.


Link?

Do an internet search on CVT lawsuit!!! Seems to be lawsuits on all of them!

 

[littlehulkster]

Originally Posted by Silverado12
Yeah you have to watch what you buy with Ford. Toyota has a lawsuit on their CVTs in the Corolla BTW.


I didn't find a lawsuit, but I did find a recall of a paltry 3,400 cars due to an "issue" where if the transmission failed at high speed, you could hit something.

Which seems dumb, really, because it would require a driver who's paying no attention at all, but I guess Toyota would rather be cautious than face another unintended acceleration hysteria.

 

[DweezilAZ]

Originally Posted by 14Accent
Originally Posted by double vanos
Another potential ticking time bomb: CVTs
They're getting better but still.


Really? Considering the amount of CVT's out there, the failure rate has been quite low. Have there been problem units? Of course. The Saturn VT25E springs to mind instantly.

For the most part, CVT's are pretty much bulletproof.

Those were nearly 20 years ago, a collaboration between GM and Fiat [another whose DCT is trash, BTW].

And still Nissans [and others using Jatco's trannies] are a run away do not walk proposition with their garbage CVTs.. Still can't be repaired or rebuilt only replaced and still $$$$$ to do either and service as well.

http://nissancvtfail.com/

http://www.subarucomplaints.com/cvt/

http://www.lemonlawcase.com/problem-vehicles/subaru-continuously-variable-transmission/

https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/comments/6pqo23/reliability_and_repair_costs_of_cvts_compared_to/

http://www.nissanproblems.com/cvt/

https://carfromjapan.com/article/car-maintenance/how-long-do-cvt-transmissions-last/ [I expect more than five frigging years out of a transmission]

https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicAd...liable_but_no_ones_talking_about_it_why/

 

[DweezilAZ]

That was one of the worst articles from Stephen Lang in a long time.

Even with a manual, powertrain problems were 42% according to his own chart on Dashboard Light.

He's making a case for false economy here. There's zero upside to this unless one gets the car for $1000 and swaps the DCT for a manual.

Usually he makes a lot of sense