A Grease Story

[IH8mush]

Originally Posted By: pottymouth
Originally Posted By: IH8mush
I have sent a prominent axle builder here in the North West a sample of this grease that is considered Outdated by Toyota Sales,
Longfield, when I first presented this info on IH8mudd I was suprized at the lack of knowledge on the finer details of this design, As mention this ignorance is intentional, basically when the subject comes up, well versed Toyota propagandists "Obfuscate" this situation,


I have no dog in this fight, but I can't help but notice many statements that go nowhere like the above. So, you sent "a prominent axle builder" a sample of your grease. Who is he? What happened? I can send Roush a dirty diaper, what exactly does it prove?

I'm potentially open minded to what you have to say, but you are not providing any evidence of anything. You assert that Toyota originally used a different lubricant in these applications but have nothinbg to back it up. You also provide no independent proof that your product is superior in the application.

Seems to me it's time to put up or shut up.


Well ok I sent a sample of this grease to the biggest Toyota aftermarket axle builder in this area

Longfield, So that is a put up, I have put up sent samples to A shop in Ca called "yotamasters" no feed back to thats a put up that went no where,

I sent a sample to Christo Slee, in Colorado a Toyota shop and that was another "Put up" that went nowhere No Feedback it was so your saying to use a lube that looks like axle seal failure??

Yep sure am because more often then not it is not the problem,
It is the type of grease used by manufactures,

I sent a sample to a parts guy by the name of Kurt Williams in Utah,

While he is playing dumb I can tell from his posts and statements that he knows full well about this form of lube

Another put up that went no where

So Mr potty mouth I have put up, used this grease in closed steering axles, Fords Toyotas Dodge it doesnt matter all the same thing all the same parts materials used and grease all off of the same design in fact Toyota upper and lower trunnion bearings and wiper seal INTERCHANGE with the DANA axle subtle differences but the same thing

I have documented repairs on this axle, researched it, consulted with oil and grease specialists, other repair shops,

And simply put the proof of a semi fluid grease is used is in the design of the axle, the mechanical engineering involved in containing a semi fluid,

while like the Ford axle that I redid may not be designed persay for a semi fluid grease it can contain it, and will give it the same longevity,

The Main situation is a incompatible grease is speced in the manual
Proof of this is what I diagnosed in a axle I repaired, so you can see I have put up its time for these Totota folks to Put up or shut up

I have and will continue to do so,

So I have hopes, once I used this lube and worked with it, it was obvious to me why it is used in this application

And it is a simple as this would you use a #2 molybdentite disulphide lithium chassis grease for a CV joint??

No, not if you want it to last,,,,

And more proof is in the pudding old school Jeepers and mechanic mix up for these things, recognizing the need for a semi fluid grease


So I have "put up"

 

[IH8mush]

Originally Posted By: JZiggy
It occurs to me too that if Toyota designed their knuckles to work with a specialized fluid they could benefit by selling that fluid under a Toyota brand, like they do with their overpriced coolant. Like Honda does with their power steering fluid, coolant, transmission fluid, etc. and so on. It doesn't make sense that Toyota would change the spec to an MP grease in that case: unless they hope that folks will use it and their product will wear out prematurely?


Yes It makes no sense, I should have been able to go to Toyota and get a silly tube of grease but this is how it went,

called Toyota talked to "Tony" at parker Toyota in CDA Idaho,

Initially he said regular old wheel bearing grease, and that they use Red Vavoline for the repairs at the dealer ship
but that doesnt have "Moly in it" oh well there is something different required under warranty, ok that what I want what Toyota put in there, its available thru the parts dept,
Ok great
Next day cant find it???? what?? Ok what is this stuff (seen it before in viscous couplers but did not know what it was)

Ok Read in old books find vague terms from domestic manufacures
Like Proper Lube or viscous lube, and short fiber grease

What the heck is short fiber grease?? then learn about sodium based grease and its incompatibility Go down to Parker Toyota and talk to Tony again, before I even showed him any info he says the FSM states to clean all that stuff out of there

No it dont,

Then get some of this grease take it down to him to show him the grease he couldnt find he looks at it and says
Yep thats Molybased grease
Well there is no such thing,
Is there anybody else I could talk to about this?

No there is a "Privacy Act"
\

So here we are,

 

[IH8mush]

Here is a link to the scans from old Motors Manuals and Jeep books

While sure this is old information but I have proof of how well this stuff holds up in a old Ford, going on 40 years

If the truck was driven in 4x4 more often the upper trunnion bearing would not have failed on the driverside,

This is why Dodge and International use a Brass Bushing in place of the bearing, on the upper support,

Any way here is the link,

http://the4x4network.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=2981

 

[erock]

Originally Posted By: IH8mush
Yes It makes no sense, I should have been able to go to Toyota and get a silly tube of grease but this is how it went,

called Toyota talked to "Tony" at parker Toyota in CDA Idaho,
...
No there is a "Privacy Act"


1) Why would Toyota stock grease that you can buy at any auto parts store? Like I've told you before, expecting them to sell you common grease is like expecting them to sell you gas. It's not going to happen and there is no reason for them to do so.

2) Tony obviously doesn't know what he's talking about, and fed you the "Privacy Act" lie to get you to leave him alone. There is no possible usage of the term "privacy act" that has any bearing on intellectual property. It was a lie. You believed it. And you are basing your entire conspiracy theory on it.

 

[IH8mush]

Originally Posted By: erock
Originally Posted By: IH8mush
Yes It makes no sense, I should have been able to go to Toyota and get a silly tube of grease but this is how it went,

called Toyota talked to "Tony" at parker Toyota in CDA Idaho,
...
No there is a "Privacy Act"


1) Why would Toyota stock grease that you can buy at any auto parts store? Like I've told you before, expecting them to sell you common grease is like expecting them to sell you gas. It's not going to happen and there is no reason for them to do so.

2) Tony obviously doesn't know what he's talking about, and fed you the "Privacy Act" lie to get you to leave him alone. There is no possible usage of the term "privacy act" that has any bearing on intellectual property. It was a lie. You believed it. And you are basing your entire conspiracy theory on it.


Dont call Tony a liar E Rock that is disrespectful, Bob will give you a three day time out for that,

Yes agreed he should have used the term "Confidentiality Contract" rather than "Privacy Act" but in his mind was dealing with a grease monkey and used that term so that I would understand,,

I refer to this as "Toyota Trade Secret grease" the exact ingredients are "Proprietary"

There has been effort by Toyota to keep this out of public knowledge,

And meets all the other aspects of a Trade secret, so that is what I call it,,

So Tony was simply doing his job, "obfuscating" so as to confuse and baffle me,

This is your job as well, so while sure you could call it lying but Bob dont like that,

Propaganda, obfuscating, mis directing, half truths, and so on

Classic

 

[erock]

The real liar here is you, Frank.

Bob and his moderators can do whatever they want. If someone feels I am out of line, then so be it. But I will not sit idly by while you make false claims about a product that you are selling.

The simple fact of the matter is that you have absolutely no proof that Toyota installed anything thinner than a #2 grease in the knuckle of the solid front axles. On the other hand, there is a compelling amount of information that directly refutes your claim.

I have never objected to the idea that it might work just fine. I object to your assertion that it came that way from the factory and that the FSM is intentionally misleading.

You continually attest that a #2 lithium-based grease with moly is inappropriate for a Birfield joint, with no real information to back up your claim. Yet I have provided numerous examples of greases from well-respected manufacturers that fit that exact description and are prescribed specifically for CV joints.

 

[IH8mush]

The real liar here is you, Frank.

Bob and his moderators can do whatever they want. If someone feels I am out of line, then so be it. But I will not sit idly by while you make false claims about a product that you are selling.


It was the mis information from Toyota that got me looking into this,

So say what you will, but if Toyota would have sold me a silly tube of grease I wouldnt had researched it, consulted with proffesionals in the field,

Because E -Rock the simple Fact remains that a ordinary chassis grease is not suitable for a Constant Velocity Joint,

This is what a Birfeild is, a CV joint,,,

This is what Toyota states to use, and not only not suitable incompatible,

This was my diagnosis of the original axle repair I did on the 1988 Toyota Land cruiser
A incompatible grease was used in a wheel bearing service, mixed with the Factory grease and caused a chemical reaction between the bases which then allowed the oil that was mixed into the grease, to bleed out thru the wiper seal,,

That was my diagnosis, not axle seal failure,, so while almost everyone thinks that when oil leaks occur at these wiper seals in is because of axle seal failure,

When in fact the majority of the time it is grease incompatibility,,

so while you do not like it this is real it is what happens grease with do either one of two things when mixed with a incompatible base

It will either solidify or liquify in this case the latter,

At first not all of this made any sense, the misdirection from Toyota, the wheel bearings that where blackened from excessive heat the leaking wiper seal , with no axle seal leak,

So while you may have all the folks in mushroom factories buying into this axle having major problems with axle seal failure not me
I have axle seal failure in a Jug, that The manufactures use

 

[erock]

Originally Posted By: IH8mush
I have axle seal failure in a Jug,


I believe this is the closest you heve been to "truth in advertising" since you started spamming the entire internet with your unfounded claims.

 

[IH8mush]

Originally Posted By: erock
Originally Posted By: IH8mush
I have axle seal failure in a Jug,


I believe this is the closest you heve been to "truth in advertising" since you started spamming the entire internet with your unfounded claims.

When I started with this the owner of the vehicle said I should look into this on the internet, Tons of information, So I did

I looked into it and seen that the information was all a bunch of mis information, on this subject,

Let me look for a good post, like the ones where folks post up something like this,

Before I took a 3,000 mile trip I topped off My 1983 Toyota Land cruise with a tube of grease thru the fill plug
Now I have handfuls of grease leaking from the knuckle,

Whats going on???


the responses are well your axle seal failed, when they should say,
Well your old school axle didnt like the grease you put in there,
Simple as that.

Also let me find the post on Mush where none other than a on-line Toyota information services employee states that initial fill is

"Moly based grease" biggest line of Mis information second only to the first thing any Toyota propagandist will tell you, including you "E-rock" is that there is a spindle seal,,,

Which is the first line of defense in the Toyota propagandist bag of mis information,
Both on line and in person, Tony pulled that one on me as well,,

 

[IH8mush]

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You have not provided information to show us that this goo you're trying to sell is any better, or at least as good as what we're using now. If it's a fluid it will not work.

The grease is moly base by the way. Nothing special, good quality moly grease.

__________________
Johnny C
1987 FJ60 - MoonShine - SROR'd, H55f'd, 2-Low'd, SOA'd, 35" MT/R'd, FF w/ 4.11'd, Round Eye'd, KMR'd, desmog'd, Storage + Sleeping'd, etc. -- DD w/252k

Previous Machines:
1987 FJ60 - Big Red
1967 Stevens Mfg. Co M416

This individual identified himself as working for Toyota information services,
At first he stated he worked on the assembly line, at a plant in Kentucky,

Then in later posts, "Admittedly I work at Toyota information services"

From that point on, Toyota information services is known as "Toyota propaganda services" at what I refer to as the "School of Hard Knocks"

Proof fact, Toyota is the one spamming the internet with misinformation to make a buck,

I have set out to bring this well established propaganda machine to a halt,,

This is my mission here on Bob not to sell grease but to bring this to the attention of other grease specialists, I heeded the advise of Robbie Anston tech editor of Toyota trails mag, and began posting this on Bob,,

So while sure I have axle seal failure in a Jug, but more importantly I wish to bring down the Toyota propaganda machine, And I will need the help of other grease specialist,

The one I spoke with encouraged me to write a article, I have, Although those in the Toyota aftermarket are either not interested, do not under stand or like things how they are,

First article suggestion went to David Zartman at Toyota Owner Magazine, the response I got back was "Very Interesting but here at Toyota owner magazine we are more into Hard parts technical"

I noticed a 3 page article on this overhaul procedure in this magazine, very detailed in every way except one

The only mention of grease was to use Mobile one as a assembly lube, just coat the bearing, and not to use to much in the hub assembly,, that is it

Now I speculate that Mobile one being a synthetic base would be the most likely grease not to have incompatible issues if one where to know the correct grease to use,

A loop hole,

The loop hole in your Toyota FSM is the word "Recommendation"

Which is advise or suggestion by definition,,, So My good friend E-Rock and your fellow Toyota information AKA propaganda Folks
\
Are the Spammers,,,, I am just a grease Monkey that set out to bring you down,,,,

 

[bigmike]

This thread is ridiculous and I vote for it to be locked.

I'm sure I'm not the only BITOG member that feels like you all should knock it off or argue elsewhere.

Some of the absolute worst bickering I've ever seen.

 

[erock]

Originally Posted By: bigmike
This thread is ridiculous and I vote for it to be locked.

I'm sure I'm not the only BITOG member that feels like you all should knock it off or argue elsewhere.

Some of the absolute worst bickering I've ever seen.


I have no intention of bringing "bickering" here. Honestly, this is very tame; Frank understands that personal threats would get him banned here like he has been on dozens of other forums.

I would love for the technical aspect of Frank's grease to be the primary focus and I think that would be a valid discussion here. I'm hoping that there are some people here with reputable experience with sodium grease to provide authoritative information.

Unfortunately, Frank has no technical information to share, instead relying on faulty logic and misconstrued information.

 

[Rix]

You haven't consulted with experts, you've insulted and ignored the experts.

You've guessed incorrectly about what the problem is, and why, you've guessed incorrectly about how the axle design itself works (toyota), and you've guessed incorrectly, numerous times, about what the grease you're trying to sell even IS.

You've straight out lied about contacting Fujio Cho, and then The main man Toyota himself.

It's rediculous, and deosn't belong on THIS forum at all.
Doesn't really belong on any of the others either, but whatever.

 

[IH8mush]

Originally Posted By: Rix
You haven't consulted with experts, you've insulted and ignored the experts.

You've guessed incorrectly about what the problem is, and why, you've guessed incorrectly about how the axle design itself works (toyota), and you've guessed incorrectly, numerous times, about what the grease you're trying to sell even IS.

You've straight out lied about contacting Fujio Cho, and then The main man Toyota himself.

It's rediculous, and deosn't belong on THIS forum at all.
Doesn't really belong on any of the others either, but whatever.


Oh sure this is what Bob is all about, One post read best researched grease info on Bob in a long time, best feedback I ever got,
So I get no where in the Mushroom Factories, the odds are not in my favor, to many "Propagandists"
So while "Rix" the factory Toyota tech will not even look at this stuff, I politely offered him a sample to inspect,
Response was "No Chance in [censored]"

So the brick wall of Toyota propaganda

Now a while back I got a call from a local Tire shop the boys at Napa told them I had the type of grease for a Toyota they where working on, I not sure of the year but it looked like a brand new Rig to me, 97 I figered, I went down into town When the manager/ owner called I showed up in the shop, showed the mechanic the MSDS sheets he looked at them, said well this looks good, has all the good stuff in it, noticed the 5% moly insoluble Moly, at that point I said well what was in there?

Mechanic replied "Oh man you dont want to know it had axle seal failure a horrible mess of goop in there"
Then I walked over to the rig and looked at the lube in the drain pan, and said well this is what is in that Jug, the mechanic responded No it isnt that is moly grease, Then I opened the Jug and showed him the grease he diagnosed as axle seal failure,
You see he only read the paper, didnt do the all important "Finger in the grease test" you see I have been talking to a lot of folks about grease, the Folks who seem to have a good grasp on grease stick their finger in, some even smell it, while Folks who dont know grease are disgusted by it, and look with compassion on the guy with grease on his finger, and sometimes on his nose,

So after that, the mechanic said I am a factory trained Toyota tech I will do what Toyota taught me, so I talked to the manager a bit more, and he said, well the mechanic makes me to much money I am not going to make him mad and tell him what to use,

Well since I took time out of my schedule to bring them this stuff and consult with them, I felt my time was worth something as well, charged them a 50 consultation fee, Service Manager paid up,

Hey I am a mechanic not a sales guy, so I figered if you call me up have me come to your shop, dont like what I say, not my problem It is Toyotas

 

[erock]

Originally Posted By: IH8mush
Oh sure this is what Bob is all about, One post read best researched grease info on Bob in a long time, best feedback I ever got,

No offense to Stuart, but he doesn’t own one. Let alone the several that I own, the dozens I’ve worked on, the hundreds that Rix has worked on, or the collective THOUSANDS that have been serviced by all the other people that have told you you’re wrong.
Originally Posted By: IH8mush
So I get no where in the Mushroom Factories, the odds are not in my favor, to many "Propagandists"
So while "Rix" the factory Toyota tech will not even look at this stuff, I politely offered him a sample to inspect,
Response was "No Chance in [censored]"

That’s what happens when you make physical threats against someone and threaten to use illegal means to track down their personal information.
Originally Posted By: IH8mush
So the brick wall of Toyota propaganda
{snip}

So, the person that was trained to work on that axle said you were wrong, but you still agreed with the untrained guy, and then you charged them for your services? What kind of businessman are you Frank?

 

[JZiggy]

I feel like this new double-secret fluid grease is solving a problem that no one is having anyway...

 

[IH8mush]

What kind of businessman are you Frank?

A grease monkey,

And grease monkeys do not like to here they have been wrong, or been duped about grease from the sales team,.,,,

Insults them, then they become angry with the messenger, call him a liar, moron,every name in the book, Rough Crowd,

But since These Toyota propagandist target these hard core wheeler folks and Mudder group, I had to step into these sess pools of misinformation to bring them the correct information,

It is ugly, very ugly Toyota propagandist will use every opportunity to discredit me and my findings, use tactics of humiliation, mud slinging, double talk, it is crasy,,

All to prove that I am crazy to state that a #2 lithium based moly fortified chassis grease is not suitable for a CV joint

This simple little fact is FACT

Any one here on Bob know that A #2 grease lithium base chassis grease for a CV joint? is about the lousiest recommendation out there

But some how with calling it a "Birfield" and claiming Moly as a grease base unto itself, they have been able to dupe Folks

So as mentioned, I have stepped into these sespools of Mis information, And successfully drug out Rix and E rock into the light of "Bob"

These Black screen Toyota sites is where this mis information festers, the cockles of deception, simply put Evil, wrong to misinform folks about grease, sick and wrong,

And I have taken it upon myself to stop it,

If no one knows about sodium, soda based, natrium grease, here on "Bob"

Then we will start talking about it, been to many years but as described seldom seen and rarely used,,

Why? lets find out,? but it was seen by this grease monkey in a axle that came from a era when that is what was used.

 

[Rix]

I think you're doing a good enough job of discrediting yourself, francis, but hey, what's another stick in the fire right?
This is what the grease that ACTUALLY comes in the knuckle of a fj80 landcruiser (and pickups, other landcruisers etc) looks like.
There is very slight gear oil contamination in this side, the other side was worse.

 

[IH8mush]

Originally Posted By: JZiggy
I feel like this new double-secret fluid grease is solving a problem that no one is having anyway...


No JZiggy I have been following this for quite a while, main topic of discussion for Toyota owners,

1 leaking wiper seals,

2 trunnion bearings failing prematurely

3 broken axles

4 the area where the seal rides (Axle Seal) the shaft being worn a groove being cut into it, now the main cause of this is dirt collecting near the seal acting as a grinding compound chewing into the steel

Dirt that would not be in there if the factory type lube was used,

Toyota owner noticing high temps in the wheel hub, hot to the touch, this is as a result of incompatible grease in wheel hub

Once the wheel bearing are repacked with lithium grease what is recommended by Toyota, the fluid lube in the knuckle migrates thru the spindle as one Toyota owner put it the Moly grease had invaded my wheel bearing grease and washed out what I had packed in there,,

This is not a good situation, when the greases mix up they have very poor lubrication and as the grease compatibility charts state, "catastrophic failure will occur"

While a loused up axle because of the wrong grease used may not be really "Catastrophic" what is a catastrophic failure is not using common sense and following a lousy recommendation by Toyota and not even thinking about it,,


How bout this Bob grease guys,,
I am thinking of redoing my CV joints, should I use a #2 moly fortified lithium chassis grease??

Toyota says so So its gotta be good right??

 

[Rix]

WRONG, francis.
There is no grease migration.
Look at the picture I posted. You see any dirt? See any cut, groove, galling, anything on that birfield?
NOPE.

Trunion bearings failing prematurely? Yeah...... with improper preload, larger tires, etc.

Broken axles? Sure, with lower transfer case gears, lower axle gears, larger tires, lockers, and off-road use.
Has NOTHING to do with grease.

The type of grease has zero to do with dirt inside the knuckle.

Wheel hub hot to touch because of incorrect grease? Are you serious?

Toyota built the thing, and warranted it, but they wanted to sabotage themselves?
Come on now.

And you've already been shown numerous #2, lithium based, Moly fortified grease for use in cv joints, Francis.