A Grease Story

[IH8mush]

And you've already been shown numerous #2, lithium based, Moly fortified grease for use in cv joints, Francis.


Well no Rix you havent,

E-rock mentioned RCV Performance Joints to check out to back the Toyota mis-information

I called them, while The rep I spoke with could not tell me a whole lot about the grease they sell, he did send me a sample tube,
As well as a nice hat Made in the USA

This tube did not say much on the label other than High Moly concentration, "For External use only", and no mention of base,

So I examined it, determined that it was a #1 grade, while you can say that I have no way of knowing grade, it is rather easily determined when you have a known sample to compare

RCV joint grease #1 grade, unknown base, didnt get a chance to fire up the Flame Photometer to find out, before I shipped it off to Longfield,s operation,

Another outfit Toyota propagandist E-Rock referred me to was Redline CV grease,

I called them, their #2 CV grease is calcium based "Red" moly fortified grease
With a 900*F Drop point, wow that is screaming hot

So while you say have showed me #2 lithium chassis greases used and recommended for CV joints you have not,

All I see when I read up on CV joints is warnings not to use exactly what Toyota Recommends ,,,

 

[IH8mush]

Yes Rix I am serious when I say wheel hub hot to the touch because of grease incompatibility, common problem did a quick search and came back with this,

94toyotapickup4life
Member

94toyotapickup4life's Avatar

Join Date: May 2007
Location: sierra vista,AZ
Posts: 63
Send a message via Yahoo to 94toyotapickup4life

Default Front Wheel Bearings in my 1984 Toyota Pickup
ok i got a 84 as listed above i just bought the truck to weeks ago and finally got the title and registration so i can drive it today! but anyway i drove it to the park and i got out to check my hubs cause sometimes they move, and when i touched the silver hump part of the hub it was prietty warm! almost Hot!! My question is its a solid axle should it lube itsself? but then again it has the ball joints! that i just packed with grease. Are the ball joints and bearings seperated? OK so what should i do??
Thanks
Trev

~TOYOTA DUDE~
__________________
1986 stock Zuki Sammari 22r engine Swap, My spare Carawler



There are lots of others, Folks have noticed this, Now this is one thing I noticed on the vehicle I repaired, the 1988 Toyota

The wheel bearings where heat treated, Bearing and races Black from excessive heat ok in all other aspects but had gotten very hot, over 300 degrees for sure,

While I am sure you will say it is because of disc brakes, no The brakes where fine, and no indication of any problem with them,
So these wheel bearings where heated to the boiling point of most brake fluids in the wheel hub,

This is a result of Friction,this what grease is supposed to help prevent,
This heat build up is from the poor lubrication qualities of mixed grease bases,
Excessive heat in wheel hubs as a result of incompatible grease
Yes Rix very serious,
Actually can cause catastrophic failure,,,,

 

[erock]

Originally Posted By: IH8mush
So while you say have showed me #2 lithium chassis greases used and recommended for CV joints you have not,


I've posted ALL of this before, but just for demonstration purposes, here you go:

http://www.lubricants.com/BuyersGuide/Grease/BradPennMolyEP.php

http://www.lubricants.com/BuyersGuide/Grease/XADOCVJointGrease.php

http://www.lubricants.com/BuyersGuide/Grease/AmalieBlueHi-Temp.php

http://www.lubricants.com/BuyersGuide/Grease/AmalieElixirSemi-Synthetic.php

http://www.lubricants.com/BuyersGuide/Grease/AmalieProTacPlusGrease.php

http://www.lubricants.com/BuyersGuide/Grease/CastrolLongtimePD2.php

http://greasexpert.com/index.php?page=product_item&category=1&pid=13#13

Red-i Premium CV Joint Grease on this page:
http://lsc-online.com/products.php?c=12

http://www.liqui-moly.de/liquimoly/produktdb.nsf/id/e_3510.html

I don't know much about most of those companies, but at least a few of them are reputable. Here's the kicker, though: according to this thread http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=210295 here on BITOG, Bob himself recommends this grease http://www.schaefferoil.com/221_grease.html
to someone as a replacement for the lithium-base grease to reduce water washout.
You'll note that he specifically recommends a #2. To someone in Detroit. And it was the middle of December.

 

[IH8mush]

Default Front Wheel Bearings in my 1984 Toyota Pickup
ok i got a 84 as listed above i just bought the truck to weeks ago and finally got the title and registration so i can drive it today! but anyway i drove it to the park and i got out to check my hubs cause sometimes they move, and when i touched the silver hump part of the hub it was prietty warm! almost Hot!! My question is its a solid axle should it lube itsself? but then again it has the ball joints! that i just packed with grease. Are the ball joints and bearings seperated? OK so what should i do??
Thanks
Trev


Trev,

Sadly Toyota recommends a incompatible grease, when your packed the ball joints with grease chances are you used one that is incompatible with the factory Type proprietary semi liquid grease,

The Ball Joints, (Knuckle) is not separated from the Wheel bearings, and now a mixed grease base is separating the oil out of the grease as a result of a chemical reaction,

This results in poor lubrication, heat will build, parts will fail, wiper seal will begin to drool out this mixed up thinned out grease concoction

So as hard as this sound, you added a grease this axle does not like,
It would have been in your best interest to leave it alone, rather than follow the advise or suggestion out lined in your
Toyota Motor Sales LTD book,

I realize I am a bit late in telling you this, but better late than never,
I am posting on the subject on Bob is the oil guy, for more info,

Thanks Frank

 

[erock]

Originally Posted By: IH8mush
Yes Rix I am serious when I say wheel hub hot to the touch because of grease incompatibility, common problem did a quick search and came back with this,

94toyotapickup4life


From here: http://www.tacomaterritory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=104353

Just a few quick posts later, the same guy posts this:


Originally Posted By: 94toyotapickup4life

found out was wrong they were way too tight im soooo lucky the bearings were not damaged and the races and seals are (A okay!) Thanks 4 all the tips guys!!



The preload was too high, causing the heat build-up. It had nothing to do with grease incompatibility.

 

[IH8mush]

Bob himself recommends this grease http://www.schaefferoil.com/221_grease.html


E-Rock schaeffers 221 grease is not lithium based

Aluminum Complex,

Nice try

Bob knows his stuff, Schaeffers good grease, Aluminum complex

Not lithium

Good grease, while I would say to go with something thinner as is that is what virtually all manufactures use, Some aspects of the Aluminum Complex Schaffers grease may be desired in a CV joint,,

 

[erock]

Originally Posted By: IH8mush
E-Rock schaeffers 221 grease is not lithium based

Aluminum Complex,


Please read and make an attempt at comprehending my posts before responding.

Originally Posted By: erock
Bob himself recommends this grease http://www.schaefferoil.com/221_grease.html
to someone as a replacement for the lithium-base grease to reduce water washout. You'll note that he specifically recommends a #2. To someone in Detroit. And it was the middle of December.

 

[IH8mush]

wait SGTMUNGER said that when its cold the wheel is supposed to have a lil play? does that wear out bearings? is he right about that? cuz when its cold it has no play, at all. Well then Spin very well, no heat marks on the bearings as i checked and the spindle is fine. After driving it around town today they heated up again! is that because of my use of the brakes so much? After packing the bearings the first nut was tighened all the way then backed off quite a bit before it was finger tight, or if you can move it with your fingers, i barely tightened it over finger tight, which the bearings spun well free. so my questions are Does the bearings have to have a lil play? Are my brakes heating up my hubs? or am i over reacting of something so amall and retareded??


No again Trev, If you re read this thread you can see you walked into a on-line sales store,
Marilin Crawler has this, cruiser out fitters has that, on and on,

No take the thing apart, clean it all up real good, because your still dealing with grease incompatiblilty, till them your going to have heat, leakage and breakage,

 

[JZiggy]

How are Toyota solid axle bearings any different than other tapered roller bearings which require a #2 grease?

 

[IH8mush]

Originally Posted By: JZiggy
How are Toyota solid axle bearings any different than other tapered roller bearings which require a #2 grease?


JZiggy,

Here is the situation, in the Oil and grease world there is a basic rule of thumb,

A tapered roller bearing is best lubed when it is in a puddle of oil,
Tons of research Oil vrs grease debates but it all boils down to this Oil resists oxidation better, last longer absorbs moisture

# 2 grease is used where Oil is troublesome to contain for the most part,

So while this axle does not contain oil so well, although Dana actually states to fill the knuckle with 140w but also states to follow manufactures recommendation depending on usage,
So while 140 w would be a better overall lube, it is troublesome to contain in this axle,

So manufactures will use a #0 grade grease, halfway between oil and #2 Grease if you will,

So the requirement for #2 grease is containment, certainly inferior as a lube,
So this is why Toyota made improvements to this axle to contain a fluid lube,
IE a secondary oil wheel seal, to protect the primary wheel seal (Oil)
This is how they are listed in the Toyota parts, Oil seals, and designed that way, one of the things I first noticed about this axle,

Oil seals, by design, so while the lube is technically a #0 grease it is a fluid, and seals are designed as such and termed "Oil seals"

Any where you look in for example 18 wheelers., oil in wheel hubs.

Simply better as a lube, So the "Requirement" of using a #2 grease depends on containment, for a tapered bearing

 

[Rix]

And again, you are grasping at straws, pulling things from anywhere you can find them, and attempting to use them to support your position, when they do not.
There is NO grease sharing between the knuckle and the wheel bearing.
PERIOD. THAT's IT. end of story.
THAT is why they spec 2 different types of grease. Both in the toyota world, and in the old jeep stuff you keep wanting to talk about.
Not because of some great conspiracy, to.... well I still don't know what it is this conspiracy of yours is trying to accomplish.


The 2wd trucks and rear drive corollas, and many many others use the same type of wheel bearing, and they spec the same type of grease FOR the wheel bearings.
Weird huh?

 

[IH8mush]

Originally Posted By: Rix
And again, you are grasping at straws, pulling things from anywhere you can find them, and attempting to use them to support your position, when they do not.
There is NO grease sharing between the knuckle and the wheel bearing.
PERIOD. THAT's IT. end of story.
THAT is why they spec 2 different types of grease. Both in the toyota world, and in the old jeep stuff you keep wanting to talk about.
Not because of some great conspiracy, to.... well I still don't know what it is this conspiracy of yours is trying to accomplish.


The 2wd trucks and rear drive corollas, and many many others use the same type of wheel bearing, and they spec the same type of grease FOR the wheel bearings.
Weird huh?



No Rix I guess that is what you cant see, By design lube is designed to flow thru the spindle,

If you look on Utah Rock Crawler, that is linked earlier you can see documentation of this as not only a potential but intentionally designed to do so,,

Thread is Toyota Core Axle,,

This Fact and it is fact of lube flow thru spindle has been hashed re-hashed I am suprized your back to that,

And like you so kindly informed me of this spindle bushing has been upgraded by Toyota to a roller bearing, while the TSB is for a IFS this spindle upgrade comes with guess what a Grease that Toyota doesnt sell according to you, Yep Toyota Chassis grease, says it right on the silly little Tube I paid darn near 20 bucks to see what it was for a ounce of it,

And guess what, it is not a #2 grease, thinner than #1 for sure
and another thing no moly

Synthetic oil, lithium soap base,, So This Toyota grease that comes with a upgraded bushing for a interchangable part for these Toyota axles
Aint #2

Dont have Moly..

So go figer

 

[Rix]

There is no flow through the spindle francis.
The wheel bearings and knuckle do not share grease.
The roller bearing upgrade and its grease don't support your position in the least.
You going to try to say an IFS spindle will hold your #0 grease too?

 

[IH8mush]

Originally Posted By: Rix
There is no flow through the spindle francis.
The wheel bearings and knuckle do not share grease.
The roller bearing upgrade and its grease don't support your position in the least.
You going to try to say an IFS spindle will hold your #0 grease too?


Lets just stick to the closed knuckle, I would have to see the IFS and test it out, The Old Ford I reworked contained this lube in the spindle bearing just fine,
so

Since The grease Toyota sells for this is thinner than #1 grade at this point I would say yep, it would, next time I am working of one of those I will check it out

 

[IH8mush]

Toyota Part #
Ok I have found a Toyota part # for what is called a Toyota chassis lube

It took hours of searching and repeated request at Toyota dealerships all over the country. with them all saying something of this sort did not exist.

P/N 08887-80219


So I ordered some of this grease to check it out, very thin, thinner than #1 grade,
It looked exactly like what I have used for eng assembly lube
lubriplate I think is called comes in a white tube with blue cap,
Sold at Napa, I will have to check that out, So yes Toyota upgraded this spindle bushing to a roller bearing, but the thrust surface of this upgraded axle support is still a brass bushing,
And the lube, not a #2 moly fortified grease, So something is amiss here,,
#2 grease ok in the same part in the straight axle but not in the IFS?? same part? interchanges,,

And Why would no Toyota parts outfit tell me about Toyota grease??

 

[Rix]

thinner than #1 huh?
And you measured this how again?
And you're going to say that the hub dial is going to contain a
thin lube, with just an o-ring?
You going to tell us the IFS trucks (post 1986) have the same #0 grease in the wheel bearing/wheel bearing hub too?
the grease specification, by your (flawed) "reverse engineering" MUST be the same as the 85 and older solid axle trucks, because they use the same wheel bearings, and a nearly identical wheel bearing hub.


Nope.

the solid axles came with one type of grease in the knuckle, and another type of grease in the wheel bearing.
They do NOT share grease. There is no flow between the 2.
They did NOT come from the factory with #0 grease in either part.
the grease they did come with was NOT sodium based.

 

[erock]

Originally Posted By: IH8mush

No Rix I guess that is what you cant see, By design lube is designed to flow thru the spindle,

If you look on Utah Rock Crawler, that is linked earlier you can see documentation of this as not only a potential but intentionally designed to do so,,



We've been over this a few dozen times. You claim that the axle design clearly dictates that grease will flow between the knuckle cavity and the wheel bearings. The problem is that it doesn't happen.

Even in axles I've worked on that had severe gear oil contamination in the knuckle cavity (birf soup), there was no "soup" inside the spindle, where it would have to be full in order to reach the wheel bearings. If there was, it would be very evident as it would pour out as soon as the hub lock was removed. So, you can claim that the "birf soup" is what was supposed to be in there from the factory until you're blue in the face and the people that actually know these axles will still know that you are wrong.



Since you brought up the intentional design aspect and the heritage of the closed knuckle design, are you still of the opinion that Willys intended the front wheel bearings to share the same grease as the knuckles?

 

[IH8mush]

Since you brought up the intentional design aspect and the heritage of the closed knuckle design, are you still of the opinion that Willys intended the front wheel bearings to share the same grease as the knuckles?


Yes E- Rock because thats is what he told me, Form # SM 1002 - R6

Page 9 section b-3

Clearly states that initial factory fill is of The wheel bearings as well, either a #1 or #0 grease,,

Plain english

 

[erock]

Originally Posted By: IH8mush
Yes E- Rock because thats is what he told me, Form # SM 1002 - R6

Page 9 section b-3

Clearly states that initial factory fill is of The wheel bearings as well, either a #1 or #0 grease,,

Plain english


Once again, please read and attempt to comprehend BEFORE posting.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/26327905/B-SECTION
Section B-3 states that the inital factory fill was a sodium-base grease. That's all it says.

On the VERY NEXT PAGE, the "Lubrication Specifications" state that the front axle u-joints should be lubed with "Universal Joint Lubricant" in either #0 or #1. It also states that the wheel bearings (both front and rear) should be lubricated by "Wheel Bearing Lubricant" in a #2.



It doesn't take much reasoning ability to deduce that the knuckle cavity and the wheel bearings were not intended to share grease.

 

[IH8mush]

E-Rock,

Old man willies would not have used two types of grease for the same assembly

This can be proven by the lube groove in the spindle bushing, Both the Dana axle and the replicated Toyota axle have these lube grooves,
The Toyota I repaired/documented had 2 lube grooves in the spindle bushing,
So back to Willies, no doubt on the knuckle being filled with a #0 grease, It doesnt take a whole lot of reasoning that this semi fluid will travel thru this groove,
since that is why it is machined into the bushing, no big fancy Rheological studies to figer that one out, common sense,

Now the peaple who "Know this axle" know that is takes a semi fluid grease,

Here is a thread where I snuck into IH8 mush . thread called 1981 Frt axle problem
Got to this potential victim of the Toyota sales team before they did, he describes the Factory semi fluid grease quite well, kinda a warm milkshake consistancy, in the wheel hub,

So E-Rock those who you describe as "Know this axle" are who I refer to as Toyota propagandists,

#5
ny60
Forum Regular



Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 21

hmm...
Hey guys. Wow Rathbob thanks for the write-up, I really appreciate the explantions and number 2 sounds right! I pulled the faceplates of the front hubs off and the insides of the hubs were soaking wet with medium-thin shiny gear oil. Kind of a warm milkshake consistency. Looks like those seals are toast. There is no gear oil leaking out of the knuckle housing yet. The inboard knuckle area is nicely coated with heavy grease and is not dripping or leaky... yet. I am going to lube up the zerks on the knuckles to see if that makes things a little better. With the sounds its making with the hubs locked there is clearly metal wearing down somewhere, high pitched sqeaking which corresponds to speed. I am just hoping the old girl makes it through winter like this in 2wd. I may put studs on her hakkas to help out with traction. Unfortunately, I think chains are a no no here.

fyi: The diff oil was not low when it was drained last week. It was at the proper level, just NASTY. It looked just like the stuff that is in the hubs right now. I guess that's good because that means the seals are still working even if just a little, right?

I will do a knuckle rebuild as soon as I can.

I also have a FJ62 sitting out back that I can take the thirds out of in the spring. How do you think 4.11 gearing work in a 1981 fj60 4speed running 31's??
ny60 is offline Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-09, 12:18 PM #6
rathbob




Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 20

nasty stuff in hubs
heres a discription on the nasty stuff in your hubs and nasty stuff it is sticky gooy [censored],but thats what these 4 wheel drive steering knuckles like,
but all to often this nasty stuff is misleading and tricks you into thinking is gear oil mixing with wheel bearing grease, nasty stuff, mix some gear oil up in wheel bearing grease and see that it doesnt even come close to the nastyness of the speciality fluid used in enclosed knuckle diffs nasty tricky stuff.
Show all Base Oils, Oil Additives and Specialty Fluids Manufacturers
About Base Oils, Oil Additives and Specialty Fluids
Base oils, oil additives, and specialty fluids are specialty and proprietary base oils and fluids related to lubricants, coolants, thermal oils, greases, metal working fluids and other application- specific fluids. They have a unique composition or tailored compounding suited for specialized applications. Base oils, oil additives, and special fluids can cling to surfaces better than other industrial oils and deliver both lubrication and protection. Base oil is the oil used in oil formulas before additives are introduced. Base oils, oil additives, and specialty fluids are used to provide protection for four-wheel drive steering knuckles, spring shackles, and other components operating in high-load, low-speed conditions.
rathbob is offline Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-09, 04:36 PM #7
ny60
Forum Regular



Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 21

Ok thanks.


This fellow describes the whole situation real well, has a semi fluid in there, coating the knuckle but not leaking inside the wheel hub,
Just as it is DESIGNED to have,,,