It's at the higher mileage like you engine where a good synt starts to really pay off. A good synt will prevent ring coking, and the bearings in yor engine looked pretty bad to me for 200K. I have known of several engines of friends that started using oil, and after tear down discovered the rings were coked badly and passing a lot of oil. Many here poo poo synt oil, but your engine is a prime example of why synt oil is susperior to dino for longer OCIs and longer lasting engines.
97 Subaru teardown - Dino 200k miles.
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If this doesn't change my mind about conventional (dino) oils I don't know what will.
Hummmmm.... J-Lube... that's Pennzoil, right?
Hummmmm.... J-Lube... that's Pennzoil, right?
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Originally Posted By: tig1
It's at the higher mileage like you engine where a good synt starts to really pay off. A good synt will prevent ring coking, and the bearings in yor engine looked pretty bad to me for 200K. I have known of several engines of friends that started using oil, and after tear down discovered the rings were coked badly and passing a lot of oil. Many here poo poo synt oil, but your engine is a prime example of why synt oil is susperior to dino for longer OCIs and longer lasting engines.
I disagree but am NOT going to hash it over with you every-time.
This engine would have continued to operate fine for many more miles if it did not have the head gasket problem. The photos PROVE that even with extended OCIs with Jiffy lube oil (which all the drinkers here poo poo beyond along with Fram filters
) does just fine. If this engine saw 5k OCIs with Jiffy Lube it would have been just perfect. Syn would not have done a single thing better.
When are you going to 15k OCIs Tig? Why are you wasting the oil if it can do another 5,000 miles?
If its so "good" then 15k with NO QUESTION. Mobil will warranty the problem if you have one...
Bill
It's at the higher mileage like you engine where a good synt starts to really pay off. A good synt will prevent ring coking, and the bearings in yor engine looked pretty bad to me for 200K. I have known of several engines of friends that started using oil, and after tear down discovered the rings were coked badly and passing a lot of oil. Many here poo poo synt oil, but your engine is a prime example of why synt oil is susperior to dino for longer OCIs and longer lasting engines.
I disagree but am NOT going to hash it over with you every-time.
This engine would have continued to operate fine for many more miles if it did not have the head gasket problem. The photos PROVE that even with extended OCIs with Jiffy lube oil (which all the drinkers here poo poo beyond along with Fram filters
If its so "good" then 15k with NO QUESTION. Mobil will warranty the problem if you have one...
Bill
Originally Posted By: Silber Igel
If this doesn't change my mind about conventional (dino) oils I don't know what will.
Hummmmm.... J-Lube... that's Pennzoil, right?
Some of them are, but not all of them.
If this doesn't change my mind about conventional (dino) oils I don't know what will.
Hummmmm.... J-Lube... that's Pennzoil, right?
Some of them are, but not all of them.
Originally Posted By: tig1
It's at the higher mileage like you engine where a good synt starts to really pay off. A good synt will prevent ring coking, and the bearings in yor engine looked pretty bad to me for 200K. I have known of several engines of friends that started using oil, and after tear down discovered the rings were coked badly and passing a lot of oil. Many here poo poo synt oil, but your engine is a prime example of why synt oil is susperior to dino for longer OCIs and longer lasting engines.
According to the Valvoline guy (IIRC), if both conventional and synthetic oils were used at the OEM recommended drain intervals, there should not be a difference in engine cleanliness.
It's at the higher mileage like you engine where a good synt starts to really pay off. A good synt will prevent ring coking, and the bearings in yor engine looked pretty bad to me for 200K. I have known of several engines of friends that started using oil, and after tear down discovered the rings were coked badly and passing a lot of oil. Many here poo poo synt oil, but your engine is a prime example of why synt oil is susperior to dino for longer OCIs and longer lasting engines.
According to the Valvoline guy (IIRC), if both conventional and synthetic oils were used at the OEM recommended drain intervals, there should not be a difference in engine cleanliness.
Is the factory OCI the same for USA as Canada? ( 6000Km / 3750 Mi ) If so this car extended them quite a bit and still looks good on dino.
As for the syn bandwagon, I ran bulk dealer oil ( Esso 5W30 ) on my '05 Impreza NA from new until the last oil change when I got PP at WalMart on the Boxing Day ( Canada's equivalent of Black Friday ) sale. This is the first time I've had to add make up oil since new. No change in MPG. Once it's used up it's back to dino for me.
As for the syn bandwagon, I ran bulk dealer oil ( Esso 5W30 ) on my '05 Impreza NA from new until the last oil change when I got PP at WalMart on the Boxing Day ( Canada's equivalent of Black Friday ) sale. This is the first time I've had to add make up oil since new. No change in MPG. Once it's used up it's back to dino for me.
You are going to get reply that you have to run syn again and then it will adjust and no oil additions will be needed. I think of: if it works... plus Consumer Report in late 90 when they say no difference noted in wear NYC taxi
between dino and syn. Which is more about to be real now that dino is improved, this year and syn stays the same.
Absolutely. So in another 8 years I will have about 200k on the tC. If it needs a pullin' apart, I surely would record it and show it off.
I do believe that it will be cleaner, but yes, it's a guess now. Everything we predict is a guess until proven.
I do believe that it will be cleaner, but yes, it's a guess now. Everything we predict is a guess until proven.
Just to clarify gentlemen, this isn't my vehicle(I would love to own it though). This guy has been known to do a lot of teardowns on engines for repairs(he's not even a mechanic). This is back from 07 but his reputation as being helpful and handy proceeds him on Subby forums.
I figured everyone here would appreciate the fact that when care is taken it doesn't matter what you run so long as you do the proper maintenance. The engine looks quite good for 200k, and others were right stating that we wouldn't know if Syn would do better. For what its worth its clean, and it would/might be cleaner if it wasn't for the coolant changing the chemistry of the oil.
I figured everyone here would appreciate the fact that when care is taken it doesn't matter what you run so long as you do the proper maintenance. The engine looks quite good for 200k, and others were right stating that we wouldn't know if Syn would do better. For what its worth its clean, and it would/might be cleaner if it wasn't for the coolant changing the chemistry of the oil.
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Originally Posted By: Silber Igel
If this doesn't change my mind about conventional (dino) oils I don't know what will.
Hummmmm.... J-Lube... that's Pennzoil, right?
I would agree with this were it not for the very clear, explicit, picture of the gummed up/carboned up oil control ring. Sure, a dino will do just fine in most street apps in the relatively cool bearings, but up there in the ring pack, well, that's another story. Still, as I said before, I can not, and do not, argue with the long-term good results here. Most folks would have traded this car long before gummed up oil control rings would have become a dominant issue.
If this doesn't change my mind about conventional (dino) oils I don't know what will.
Hummmmm.... J-Lube... that's Pennzoil, right?
I would agree with this were it not for the very clear, explicit, picture of the gummed up/carboned up oil control ring. Sure, a dino will do just fine in most street apps in the relatively cool bearings, but up there in the ring pack, well, that's another story. Still, as I said before, I can not, and do not, argue with the long-term good results here. Most folks would have traded this car long before gummed up oil control rings would have become a dominant issue.
So would it be close to general consensus that if the owner of this vehicle did Jiffy lube oil changes every 4-6k miles and did NOT have a coolant issue (which KILLS BEARINGS no matter what oil you are using) that at 200k this engine would be humming along with no "gumming" or such that people are calling out?
Bill
Bill
I doubt if would be any different using syn to be honest. Yes heat tolerances are slightly better(minute), but you can't deny that time and time again we have seen engines torn apart that are fine. I doubt it would be any "cleaner".
My 01 Impala LS on Mobil 1 its whole life till I gifted it to my brother had light brown varnish on its internals(like a goldish varnish). So every engine, regardless if its the same model will wear differently and react differently to the same oil. A copy of a copy is never 100% to the original.
I wish I had screenshots of my Impala being torn down to fix the Upper and Lower Intake Manifold gaskets as it had a big big BIG coolant leak. That would have been a sight to see.
The only time I have seen gummed up engines using dino are from people who bought used cars who took care of them, but the previous owners might not have. Tear it down and its not as clean as you would think because people who aren't on the BITOG mindset don't care about their rides as they will get rid of them. The new owners will quickly blame the oil, not the previous owner.
The second time is when people drive 10, 15, 30, over 100k on Dino OR Synthetic and its as if the creature from the black lagoon spent 30 minutes taking a dookie in your engine.
My 01 Impala LS on Mobil 1 its whole life till I gifted it to my brother had light brown varnish on its internals(like a goldish varnish). So every engine, regardless if its the same model will wear differently and react differently to the same oil. A copy of a copy is never 100% to the original.
I wish I had screenshots of my Impala being torn down to fix the Upper and Lower Intake Manifold gaskets as it had a big big BIG coolant leak. That would have been a sight to see.
The only time I have seen gummed up engines using dino are from people who bought used cars who took care of them, but the previous owners might not have. Tear it down and its not as clean as you would think because people who aren't on the BITOG mindset don't care about their rides as they will get rid of them. The new owners will quickly blame the oil, not the previous owner.
The second time is when people drive 10, 15, 30, over 100k on Dino OR Synthetic and its as if the creature from the black lagoon spent 30 minutes taking a dookie in your engine.
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Originally Posted By: Anies
Just to clarify gentlemen, this isn't my vehicle(I would love to own it though). This guy has been known to do a lot of teardowns on engines for repairs(he's not even a mechanic). This is back from 07 but his reputation as being helpful and handy proceeds him on Subby forums.
I figured everyone here would appreciate the fact that when care is taken it doesn't matter what you run so long as you do the proper maintenance. The engine looks quite good for 200k, and others were right stating that we wouldn't know if Syn would do better. For what its worth its clean, and it would/might be cleaner if it wasn't for the coolant changing the chemistry of the oil.
Thank you for STARTING the thread!
To me it just proves that you do not need to spend the $$ (that marketing people would love for you to do) to make 200k PLUS with no problems.
I've done it too many times. Have friends who take my vehicles and continue down the road with no problems.
The mindset that you HAVE to use brand x or type y and if you don't then you are driving a beater or don't care about your vehicles is just disturbing to me. If they want to spend the $$ great but DO NOT call out members who get the same service out of their vehicles just like they do.
My 3 cents.. Thanks again for the thread! Bill
Just to clarify gentlemen, this isn't my vehicle(I would love to own it though). This guy has been known to do a lot of teardowns on engines for repairs(he's not even a mechanic). This is back from 07 but his reputation as being helpful and handy proceeds him on Subby forums.
I figured everyone here would appreciate the fact that when care is taken it doesn't matter what you run so long as you do the proper maintenance. The engine looks quite good for 200k, and others were right stating that we wouldn't know if Syn would do better. For what its worth its clean, and it would/might be cleaner if it wasn't for the coolant changing the chemistry of the oil.
Thank you for STARTING the thread!
I've done it too many times. Have friends who take my vehicles and continue down the road with no problems.
The mindset that you HAVE to use brand x or type y and if you don't then you are driving a beater or don't care about your vehicles is just disturbing to me. If they want to spend the $$ great but DO NOT call out members who get the same service out of their vehicles just like they do.
My 3 cents.. Thanks again for the thread! Bill
I appreciate it Bill. Before joining BITOG I was a car maintenance buff, doing oil changes @ 3k miles, washing, waxing, fixing repairs on time etc. But I am fascinated by engine internals now more than ever thanks to this site. I just love seeing this stuff and glad to share it with like minded people.
I forgot who said it first, but this stuff is literally like naughty stuff, gotta hide it from the wife because she calls me a nerd
sorry about bypassing the censor Bill, didn't mean to just trying to make it less "bad" but I didn't do it well enough
I forgot who said it first, but this stuff is literally like naughty stuff, gotta hide it from the wife because she calls me a nerd
sorry about bypassing the censor Bill, didn't mean to just trying to make it less "bad" but I didn't do it well enough
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Coolant can pound bearings in short order. However, the coolant ingress has nothing to do with rig deposits and that is where alot of times a conventional oil cannot protect as well as a good synthetic. Top ring lands are way closer to the top of the piston than those of only a few years ago. Hence the new GM and API specs coming soon to an oil near you.
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: tig1
It's at the higher mileage like you engine where a good synt starts to really pay off. A good synt will prevent ring coking, and the bearings in yor engine looked pretty bad to me for 200K. I have known of several engines of friends that started using oil, and after tear down discovered the rings were coked badly and passing a lot of oil. Many here poo poo synt oil, but your engine is a prime example of why synt oil is susperior to dino for longer OCIs and longer lasting engines.
I disagree but am NOT going to hash it over with you every-time.
This engine would have continued to operate fine for many more miles if it did not have the head gasket problem. The photos PROVE that even with extended OCIs with Jiffy lube oil (which all the drinkers here poo poo beyond along with Fram filters
) does just fine. If this engine saw 5k OCIs with Jiffy Lube it would have been just perfect. Syn would not have done a single thing better.
When are you going to 15k OCIs Tig? Why are you wasting the oil if it can do another 5,000 miles?
If its so "good" then 15k with NO QUESTION. Mobil will warranty the problem if you have one...
Bill
I have thought about 15 OCIs, and at times do 11-12K. 10K is my target mileage, but at times go over that. I have a friend doing 15K with 5-30EP in his 03 Windstar with fine results. I change his oil for him as he is very lack with engine maintainence.
Originally Posted By: tig1
It's at the higher mileage like you engine where a good synt starts to really pay off. A good synt will prevent ring coking, and the bearings in yor engine looked pretty bad to me for 200K. I have known of several engines of friends that started using oil, and after tear down discovered the rings were coked badly and passing a lot of oil. Many here poo poo synt oil, but your engine is a prime example of why synt oil is susperior to dino for longer OCIs and longer lasting engines.
I disagree but am NOT going to hash it over with you every-time.
This engine would have continued to operate fine for many more miles if it did not have the head gasket problem. The photos PROVE that even with extended OCIs with Jiffy lube oil (which all the drinkers here poo poo beyond along with Fram filters
If its so "good" then 15k with NO QUESTION. Mobil will warranty the problem if you have one...
Bill
I have thought about 15 OCIs, and at times do 11-12K. 10K is my target mileage, but at times go over that. I have a friend doing 15K with 5-30EP in his 03 Windstar with fine results. I change his oil for him as he is very lack with engine maintainence.
Speculation. You should use the same restraint you requested of me for the unknown.
As for the post below by you, I'm sorry, but the calling out here is mostly done by the folks antagonizing the synthetic using crowd from what I see.
Bottom line, everyone needs to let people do what they wish in regards to their money. If there's some technical reason for going against someone's practices, fine.
I see more baiting of synthetic users here than vice versa.
My two cents.
As for the post below by you, I'm sorry, but the calling out here is mostly done by the folks antagonizing the synthetic using crowd from what I see.
Bottom line, everyone needs to let people do what they wish in regards to their money. If there's some technical reason for going against someone's practices, fine.
I see more baiting of synthetic users here than vice versa.
My two cents.
12 oz. Neutra 131 in crankcase for the last 500 miles of each OCI - I say the gummed ring would be a different story. Occassional but routine use of 131 in the gas, the carbon deposits would be minimized.
Pure opinion, but heart felt.
(MMO... maybe, but less heart felt)
Pure opinion, but heart felt.
(MMO... maybe, but less heart felt)
Originally Posted By: ericthepig
12 oz. Neutra 131 in crankcase for the last 500 miles of each OCI - I say the gummed ring would be a different story. Occassional but routine use of 131 in the gas, the carbon deposits would be minimized.
Pure opinion, but heart felt.
(MMO... maybe, but less heart felt)
OK, but would that added effort, money etc. be needed if synth were run?
My heart felt feeling is no.
12 oz. Neutra 131 in crankcase for the last 500 miles of each OCI - I say the gummed ring would be a different story. Occassional but routine use of 131 in the gas, the carbon deposits would be minimized.
Pure opinion, but heart felt.
(MMO... maybe, but less heart felt)
OK, but would that added effort, money etc. be needed if synth were run?
My heart felt feeling is no.
Originally Posted By: PurplePride
OK, but would that added effort, money etc. be needed if synth were run?
My heart felt feeling is no.
True. I've brooded on the dino w/ end run of Neutra for my Mazda 6. But I have no comsumption, so this would require drain off some oil in order to add Neutra - ie, time and effort.
So, hindsight on the Subie is to shorten the dino run or go with Synth. Many are claiming victory for dino for this Subie engine - but that coked ring is a mess.
OK, but would that added effort, money etc. be needed if synth were run?
My heart felt feeling is no.
True. I've brooded on the dino w/ end run of Neutra for my Mazda 6. But I have no comsumption, so this would require drain off some oil in order to add Neutra - ie, time and effort.
So, hindsight on the Subie is to shorten the dino run or go with Synth. Many are claiming victory for dino for this Subie engine - but that coked ring is a mess.
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