91 Toronado

[CNT]

Hi! My first post in this OIL forum! OK, I bought a 1991 Oldsmobile Toronado (base). 100K. It hasn't been started in 10 years. It was driven by a lady (a mother), their house appears well taken care of (nice suburb in upper Illinois). It was kept in the garage all that time (that's a big plus!), even I see some little white stuff with mouse popo on the engine (by the thermostat). It barely has NO rust (just little in underbody edges, appears this was never driven in winters). I had it tow to my house. Since it was real dusty, I lightly washed it right away the next morning (while it was 10°F), with warm water and soap, from the house faucet (e.g. water softener). That was about a month ago. It's now sitting on 4 jack stands (right where the jacking spots are), with car cover and freezing. It didn't include a car manual. First thing I have to do is drain the gas out (1/2 tank full). I got the relay switch and will be using the gas tank pump. Then, obvious, put some fresh gas in (with a 5 gal red tank, with MMO). The EXCITING next thing is MARVEL MYSTERY OIL !! I wasn't made aware of this oil in my 50 years!? Toronado has always been FRONT WHEEL DRIVE (1966 - 1992). Can someone tell me exactly what kind (name/model/specifications/capacity) this transmission is? You know, the internet is confusing. Some say this is a turbo (yet, my car is NOT a "Trofeo")? I want to FLUSH the old transmission fluid out with new fluid (isn't this called "fluid exchange"?). The transmission fluid is dripping like water when I pulled out the dipstick. Also, I want to FLUSH out some of the other fluids, so I am going to list what I gather to use specifically for this 91 Toronado. Yes, I am asking to please correct me here. Engine: will start out with Quaker State conventional oil (10W-30) for few hundred miles (mixed with MMO), and then switch to synthetic-blend Quaker State High Mileage. I am Quaker State guy for many years, sorry. Not sure about how often to change the oil (3K as old times, or is it now 5K, 7K)? I just buy AC Delco filter. ATF: only use Dexron III / Mercon (plan to buy AC Delco brand) Coolant: only use GREEN conventional coolant (I have looked all over for Peak GREEN, NONE of the local retailers has those! Only two online that I find are Amazon.com and Walmart.com. Outrageous freaking, Walmart.com is selling it for $106 a gal!?!?) (So, I give up; plan to buy Zerex original GREEN) Brakes: only use DOT 3 (I bought Peak brand) Power Steering: use regular power steering fluid (I bought Peak brand) Now, my question is HOW to flush the transmission fluid. Well, I have watch hours of YouTube on this topic. Some use natural "gravity suction" (most are saying this method does not work, false statement?). Some use pumps. Some varies. So, this is what I have come up with (again, correct me here, and explain why) 1) Take off the lower line connection from the radiator (that would be TO the transmission) 2) Find a hand pump to pump NEW fluid through that line (just to get new fluid on that particular line) 3) Leave that connect open of that TO on the radiator, that will be use to drain the old fluid (into a bucket), and cap the TO line (to keep the new fluid in the line) 4) Now, take off the pan and replace the filter 5) Clean the pan (and magnet) with brake cleaner 6) Put pan back on 7) Pour transmission fluid in the dipstick (~2 quarts) 8) While leaving the funnel in the dipstick, start the engine 9) The old fluid should be pouring OUT into the bucket, I keep pouring IN the new fluid in the dipstick (pour "equivalent" to what's spouting out). 10) When the new fluid is coming out into the bucket, then I shut off the engine 11) Close up everything, check levels, drive car around, check level, etc How does this sequence look? Most of the YouTube suggest replacing the filter after the flush. But, I am thinking since everything starts from the pan (and the TO line capped), so I just keep pouring the new fluid in the dipstick (that goes directly to the pan, doesn't it?), that will push (flush) anything ahead of the pan, including the tongue converter. So, thus #4 before flush. Correct? I was hoping to do all flush before starting the car for first time, but it's winter in Wisconsin now! Sorry if this is long, but just want to put everything out right away.

 

[John_Conrad]

as for the transmission, to do a complete flush i use a hand pump to remove as much old fluid from above, i then raise vehicle drop pan(much lighter as fluid has been removed), change filter, reattch pan, and add the appropriate transmission fluid back in. I then disconnect the return line coming from radiator or tranny cooler at the transmission and place a pan under it, have assistant run vehicle while you are watching this drain, when you notice the dirty fluid coming from this line turn to clean , then immediatle shut engine off. replace all fluid accordingly..

 

[MolaKule]

Let me state what I stated in the OTC forum about MMO:

Quote

MMO will thin your engine oil depending on the grade of your engine oil to begin with. With a 2.3 cSt viscosity MMO will thin a 10W30 down to about 5W20 in a 1 to 5 ratio. The extra phosphorus contained in MMO when added to fuel will add to the phos load in your catalytic converter. For fuel system cleaning the cheap ole Berryman's B-12 has most of the solvent cleaning chemistry you will ever need for adding to fuel. For combustion chamber cleaning one can follow up with any of PEA fuel system fuel additives. Anytime an engine crankcase cleaner is used always change oil and filter afterwords. Never drive with any of these thin flush type cleaners in the crankcase.

Change oil and filters with shorter OCI's and forget about engine cleaners and flushes. As for the AT, I would use regular mineral oil-based Dexron/Merc fluids with a transmission filter change until I knew there were no leaks. The Berryman's B-12 is to be used in the Fuel System only, not the engine crankcase. Modern fuels are 100 times cleaner and modern oils have much higher detergency than did the oils grandpa used. MMO was ok in its day for scavenging lead deposits when fuel contained tetraethyl lead. When MMO is added to fuel the extra phos will be mixed with a fuel that originally had NO phos. Since fuel is much more volatile the added phos will be immediately found in the exhaust gasses and passed to the CAT. If one believes their engine has lots of sludge then pan removal and pickup screen cleaning should be done. If the pan cannot be removed, then slow cleaning with modern high detergent oils and frequent filter changes is, in my opinion, the best method. I.e, 1.5k OCI's should be done until the engine is cleaned to your satisfaction.

 

[Propflux01]

You can get regular old green coolant at autozone.

 

[AZjeff]

Photos of this beast of a car are mandatory.

 

[CNT]

Originally Posted by MolaKule

Modern fuels are 100 times cleaner and modern oils have much higher detergency than did the oils grandpa used. MMO was ok in its day for scavenging lead deposits when fuel contained tetraethyl lead.

Yes. As to what I read about MMO, it was for the 'ol days with kind of gas and oil they had back then. Today, there's all kinds of additives in gasoline and oil already. What I was looking at MMO is to use it for short time, as to revive the car back to the road, then change the oil quickly (like after 100 miles?). Just want to get additives strong right away, in hope to break down anything that may be inside, then I would use the High Mileage oil straight out of the bottle (without any additional additives). I am kinda wondering if there's sluggish varnish in the gas tank/pump? So, MMO (mixed) to start, then 2nd fillup, it would be just gas. Or are you suggesting to avoid MMO completely?

 

[CNT]

Quote

Photos of this beast of a car are mandatory.

 

[Chris142]

Autozone,Orileys and Napa all have Conventional green coolant.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted by CNT

Originally Posted by MolaKule

Modern fuels are 100 times cleaner and modern oils have much higher detergency than did the oils grandpa used. MMO was ok in its day for scavenging lead deposits when fuel contained tetraethyl lead.

Yes. As to what I read about MMO, it was for the 'ol days with kind of gas and oil they had back then. Today, there's all kinds of additives in gasoline and oil already. What I was looking at MMO is to use it for short time, as to revive the car back to the road, then change the oil quickly (like after 100 miles?). Just want to get additives strong right away, in hope to break down anything that may be inside, then I would use the High Mileage oil straight out of the bottle (without any additional additives). I am kinda wondering if there's sluggish varnish in the gas tank/pump? So, MMO (mixed) to start, then 2nd fillup, it would be just gas. Or are you suggesting to avoid MMO completely?

What I am saying is I see no real advantage to using MMO. The disadvantages from misuse seem to be greater than any perceived advantages.

 

[zrxkawboy]

Nice car, looks like a fun project!

 

[John_Conrad]

Originally Posted by John_Conrad

as for the transmission, to do a complete flush i use a hand pump to remove as much old fluid from above, i then raise vehicle drop pan(much lighter as fluid has been removed), change filter, reattch pan, and add the appropriate transmission fluid back in. I then disconnect the return line coming from radiator or tranny cooler at the transmission and place a pan under it, have assistant run vehicle while you are watching this drain, when you notice the dirty fluid coming from this line turn to clean , then immediatle shut engine off. replace all fluid accordingly..

reattach the return line to tranny, forgot that leetle detail. then proceed to fill accordingly with transmission fluid

 

[pitzel]

Transmission appears to be just a garden-variety 4T60 / 440-T4. Very reliable with the 3800 V6.

 

[WylieCoyote]

She's a beauty, considering her age. I've seen a hundred of these cars up close in my lifetime, from when I detailed cars, and then worked in the parts department of an Olds dealership in the early 90s. Drove many of them as demos. I'll never be able to look at one without thinking of the day I saw a the oil pan blow off of one after the techs tried for an hour to get it started after a -20 degree night. Fun memory. That 3800 is a smooth operator. Enjoy the drive (and the projects that will ensue)!

 

[aquariuscsm]

BEAUTIFUL car!! Burgundy red imo was the best color on these. I had a 1987 gray Toronado Trofeo FE-3. I sold it with a little more than 350,000 miles. Still ran like brand new. No oil usage or leaks whatsoever. I ran Castrol GTX every 3K in mine. Does yours have that Hurst looking shifter like mine?

 

[CNT]

Originally Posted by WylieCoyote

I'll never be able to look at one without thinking of the day I saw a the oil pan blow off of one after the techs tried for an hour to get it started after a -20 degree night. Fun memory.

What!? Should I leave the car alone until spring!? LOL

 

[CNT]

Originally Posted by aquariuscsm

Does yours have that Hurst looking shifter like mine?

No. I had a thought about changing the shifter, but would be too much of a hassle.

 

[CNT]

Originally Posted by John_Conrad

as for the transmission, to do a complete flush i use a hand pump to remove as much old fluid from above, i then raise vehicle drop pan(much lighter as fluid has been removed), change filter, reattch pan, and add the appropriate transmission fluid back in. I then disconnect the return line coming from radiator or tranny cooler at the transmission and place a pan under it, have assistant run vehicle while you are watching this drain, when you notice the dirty fluid coming from this line turn to clean , then immediatle shut engine off. replace all fluid accordingly..

So, in other words, you're saying... 1) take off the pan and replace the filter 2) clean the pan 3) put back the pan 4) pour in ~2 quart transmission fluid 5) then disconnect the line 6) run the engine until clean fluid comes out *X*X* that would mean draining ~11 quarts *X*X* *X*X* by that time, the whole transmission would be without fluid (that would be called DRY) *X*X* 7) stop the engine 8) pour in (at least) 2 gal of transmission fluid (at once?) 9) start the engine and check the dipstick Is that what you're saying? I just want to make sure I understand.

 

[CNT]

Originally Posted by pitzel

Transmission appears to be just a garden-variety 4T60 / 440-T4. Very reliable with the 3800 V6.

So, this is a 4-speed automatic Turbo transmission? The engine is not turbo-charged, so the "turbo" transmission isn't going to drive like a turbo car? It's just a strong transmission that is made for turbo engines? What transmission fluid would be specified or suggested for this transmission?

 

[WylieCoyote]

THM440T4 indicates Turbo HydraMatic Model 440. It's a marketing name, nothing to do with forced induction.

 

[pitzel]

Originally Posted by CNT

Originally Posted by pitzel

Transmission appears to be just a garden-variety 4T60 / 440-T4. Very reliable with the 3800 V6.

So, this is a 4-speed automatic Turbo transmission? The engine is not turbo-charged, so the "turbo" transmission isn't going to drive like a turbo car? It's just a strong transmission that is made for turbo engines? What transmission fluid would be specified or suggested for this transmission?

"Turbomatic" is just a brand name, like earlier "Hydramatic" GM automatic transmissions. Probably has something to do with the fact that torque converter is a combination of a impeller and a turbine, and effectively they produce a coupling, through fluid, that causes the torque converter to work. The manual probably officially specifies Dexron IIE, but Dexron III-compatible fluids are what to use in it. I personally don't know how well Dexron IV works (ie: the modern full-synthetic GM Dexron-licensed fluid), but I haven't read of anyone leaping to use it to solve any issue because quite frankly, there are almost no issues. Those transmission were pretty solid in the 3800 or 3.1 LH0 applications -- very uncontroversial, and I personally have seen quite a few examples of going 200k+ miles with zero maintenance, factory fluid. The only application in which I believe they were slightly under-sized was the 3.4 DOHC "LQ1" engine of the era, where the 220-240hp of the time caused accelerated demise. Then again, the LQ1 was a maintainers nightmare. edit: *highly* recommend you track down the proper factory service manual for the car. It gives you all the torque values, and step by step procedures for practically everything. ~$20-ish shipped in the lower 48 on eBay right now. Even if you hire out the work on it, if you just have the manual available for your mechanic, you'll be doing the car a big favour.