5W-30: Aiming at a Moving Target

[TxGreaseMonkey]

5w30 is recommended for both my 2000 Ford Taurus and my 1993 Honda Civic. I've been using synthetics since 1978 and have tried most brands over the years. In my "quest for the best 5w30," I felt that the toughest specs would be to find an oil that was ACEA A3-rated and met MB 229.3 or 229.5. The only readily available oil I have found, so far, is Amsoil. I've been using it for 2-1/2 years and it seems great. I use Amsoil filters and change the oil every 7,500 to 8,000 miles. I am very skeptical of their 25,000 mile claim. I had been using Mobil 1 5w30, but I observed too many filings in the pan, especially in the Civic. In the Taurus, I use Amsoil synthetic ATF in the transmission and power steering. For brake fluid, I use ATE TYP 200 and Valvoline SynPower, changing it every 2 years. I loved everything about the Mobil 1 0W-40 but the Taurus didn't like it. It's strictly a 5w30 car.

How often would you change the Amsoil ATF?

 

[JohnBrowning]

You might check out Redline 5W30!!! If you are going to use Amsoil I hope it is their Series 3000 5W30! NEcked oil to check out would be Synergens 3W30LTS.

 

[medic]

quote:

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Originally posted by JohnBrowning:
If you are going to use Amsoil I hope it is their Series 3000 5W30!

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Why? What is wrong with the Regular Amsoil 5w30 (ASL)? I ran it in my vehicle for up to 11k miles without any issues and without any significant thickening. Yes, the S3k is a better oil, but ASL is pretty darn good.

 

[benjamming]

Have you taken any oil samples to be analyzed on any of the oils? That can be a good tool.

Are you changing the transmission filter in the Taurus when you change the fluid? Are you doing a simple pan drop & fluid change in the Ford or are you doing some type of flush? Are you using the AMSOIL ATF in the Civic?

 

[TxGreaseMonkey]

Never done a UOA, even though I thoroughly understand the numbers. Yes, I always replace the filter when I drop the pan. I installed a B&M drain plug, the first time I dropped the pan. Next time, I plan to follow Amsoil's approach and drain the converter. Up to now, I have periodically drained 7 quarts from a 13.4 quart system and replaced with Amsoil ATF. Have almost 100% Amsoil ATF now.

My Civic has a manual transmission and I run Valvoline SynPower 10w30 in it.

 

[y_p_w]

quote:

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Originally posted by TxGreaseMonkey:
In my "quest for the best 5w30," I felt that the toughest specs would be to find an oil that was ACEA A3-rated and met MB 229.3 or 229.5. The only readily available oil I have found, so far, is Amsoil.

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By the ACEA's definition, an A3 oil won't meet their higher fuel economy standards. There's the A5 standard for a higher fuel economy extended drain oil.

http://www.infineum.com/information/gaseng2004.pdf

 

[TxGreaseMonkey]

Check out the specs for MB 229.3 and 229.5, which are very fuel-efficient oils, that will meet ACEA's A3 HTHS requirements. I admit the fuel mileage will probably be better with an A1/A5 product, but the trade off to lower HTHS numbers is one I'm not ready to make. MB 229.3 and 229.5 specs are probably the toughest in the world.

 

[AndyH]

quote:

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Originally posted by TxGreaseMonkey:
In my "quest for the best 5w30," I felt that the toughest specs would be to find an oil that was ACEA A3-rated and met MB 229.3 or 229.5.

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"German" Castrol Syntec 0w30 is ACEA A3-rated and meets MB 229.1 & 229.3. Only trouble is tracking it down in some parts of the country since it's only sold at AutoZone.

 

[Pablo]

JB - King of out of the blue. Please tell me, exactly what Redline will do for TexGM?

As for Amsoil ATF change intervals this is handy

100K should be no issue - but 50-100K is my paranoid recommendation.

 

[y_p_w]

quote:

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Originally posted by TxGreaseMonkey:
Check out the specs for MB 229.3 and 229.5, which are very fuel-efficient oils, that will meet ACEA's A3 HTHS requirements. I admit the fuel mileage will probably be better with an A1/A5 product, but the trade off to lower HTHS numbers is one I'm not ready to make. MB 229.3 and 229.5 specs are probably the toughest in the world.

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The only 229.3 or 229.5 standard oil I remember being qualified for API "Energy Conserving" was Mobil 1 0W-40 in API SL. The supposed reason why it could meet "Energy Conserving" was that it thinned out with use - i.e. HTHS decreases.

Some have alleged that the MB 229.5 standard allows for extended drains at the expense of additional wear.

 

[TxGreaseMonkey]

Amsoil 5w30, Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5w30, and Quaker State 5w30 Euro are also "API Energy Conserving." Here's how Mercedes describes a 229.5 oil.

"MB sheet 229.5 approved oils; "MB Longlife Service Oils" for passenger cars with gas and diesel engines with extended drain intervals beyond 229.3 oils, to 30,000 km, min 1.8% fuel saving, first oils introduced summer 2002. For gas engines of the M100 series, gas engines of the M200 series and diesel engines of the OM600 series (not models with Euro 4 diesel particle filters).

229.5 engine oils must be used with fleece oil filter designed for use with 229.5 engine oils."

It goes without saying that all of the extended drain claims are made at the expense of wear. Very few people I know have ever tried to go 25,000 miles on Amsoil or even 15,000 miles on Mobil 1 EP. It's pretty much marketing, just like Ford claims you can go 100,000 miles on their platinum plugs. None of us who are into performance push things that far.

[ July 15, 2005, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: TxGreaseMonkey ]

 

[y_p_w]

quote:

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Originally posted by TxGreaseMonkey:
Amsoil 5w30, Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5w30, and Quaker State 5w30 Euro are also "API Energy Conserving." Here's how Mercedes describes a 229.5 oil.

"MB sheet 229.5 approved oils; "MB Longlife Service Oils" for passenger cars with gas and diesel engines with extended drain intervals beyond 229.3 oils, to 30,000 km, min 1.8% fuel saving, first oils introduced summer 2002. For gas engines of the M100 series, gas engines of the M200 series and diesel engines of the OM600 series (not models with Euro 4 diesel particle filters).

229.5 engine oils must be used with fleece oil filter designed for use with 229.5 engine oils."

It goes without saying that all of the extended drain claims are made at the expense of wear. Very few people I know have ever tried to go 25,000 miles on Amsoil or even 15,000 miles on Mobil 1 EP. It's pretty much marketing, just like Ford claims you can go 100,000 miles on their platinum plugs. None of us who are into performance push things that far.

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I've read that description of 229.3 and 229.5 oils. The comparison for fuel economy is vs. the 229.1 minimum fuel economy standard, and not the API's synthetic 5w30 reference oil.

Here's the Pennzoil Platinum Euro and QS European Formula Ultra 5w30 product data sheets:

http://www.pzlqs.com/Tech/Pdsheet/D...PlatinumSyntheticEuropeanFormulationUltra.PDF
http://www.pzlqs.com/Tech/Pdsheet/QuakerState/EngineOils/pdf/EuropeanFormulaUltra.pdf

There is no mention that they meet API "Energy Conserving" or GF-4. Basically - one has to sacrifice a little fuel economy for an HTHS of 3.5.

Here's the (non-Euro) Pennzoil Platinum PDS:

http://www.pzlqs.com/Tech/Pdsheet/DomesticMarketing/EngineOils/pdf/PlatinumFullSyntheticMotorOil.PDF

quote:

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ILSAC GF-4, GF-3 and GF-2 Energy Conserving performance standards (5W-20, 5w30 & 10w30)

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I'm not saying that there isn't a place for these oils. If I owned a Mercedes-Benz car, I'd probably use one of them. I'm just not convinced there's anything great about using them in any domestic or Japanese make. Besides that, I've never seen Pennzoil Platinum Euro on a store shelf. My guess is that the only place that might bother to order it are European car dealers.

 

[TxGreaseMonkey]

I just looked at box that my case of Amsoil 5w30 came in and it explicitly states "Energy Conserving II." It is a GF-3 product, not GF-4. No big deal. I frequently travel in Europe and every 5w30 I have ever seen there has been at least "Energy Conserving" and GF-3. Europeans demand it. You won't find the Pennzoil Platinum Euro on a store shelf in this country. Distributors here in Texas only deliver it in 55 gal. drums (Shell part no. 5063827), straight out of Houston. My question is what do you really give up? You get better HTHS and great gas mileage. Low HTHS oils shows up in premature ring, cylinder, and valve/cam wear.

 

[TooSlick]

Amsoil makes a point of using up all their old boxes and package labels in stock - the CEO is very tight fisted that way and doesn't waste anything

.

However I can assure you that you're getting their latest formulation chemistry. Any of the UOA's posted in the past two months are using the reformulated 0w-30/5w30/10w-30 Amsoil products.

Tooslick
Dixie Syn.

 

[y_p_w]

quote:

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Originally posted by TooSlick:
Amsoil makes a point of using up all their old boxes and package labels in stock - the CEO is very tight fisted that way and doesn't waste anything

.

However I can assure you that you're getting their latest formulation chemistry. Any of the UOA's posted in the past two months are using the reformulated 0w-30/5w30/10w-30 Amsoil products.

Tooslick
Dixie Syn.

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Is he so tight fisted that he has to use really old copy too?

Seriously - "Energy Conserving II" was phased out in 1996 when the API SJ standard came out. The API would never allow a current licensed product to list that.

European carowners certainly don't care about API service/fuel economy ratings. They have the ACEA ratings, where the "fuel saving" A1/A5 ratings are mutually exclusive of the A3 rating.

 

[TxGreaseMonkey]

Product information from Amsoil's corporate website for ASL 5w30 states:

.API SL, SJ, SH, CF
.Chrysler MS-6395 J, MS-9754, MS-10441
.Ford WSS M2C-153G
.GM 4718-M, 6094M
.VW 502.00, 505.00
.Energy Conserving II
.ILSAC GF-2, GF-3
.Daimler Chrysler 229.1, 229.3
.JASO VTW
.ACEA A-2, A-3, B-2, B-3

Oil companies frequently list many of their old and new pedigrees on their containers. In Europe you will often see API, ISLAC, ACEA, and other specs on their oil containers. Oils marketed by Shell, Exxon, BP, and others in Europe are also sold to Europeans, Americans, and others who drive cars from around the world. I can't tell you how many Ford Focus and Explorers I've seen on the roads around Ramstein AB, Aviano AB, and others, by American GIs. Some Europeans also drive American and Japanese cars. I know this for a fact because I frequently drive all over Europe. My wife is in Latvia now and we will be planning our next trip to Europe, when she gets back in August.

[ July 16, 2005, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: TxGreaseMonkey ]

 

[JohnBrowning]

Medic to answere your question about what is wrong with ASL you only have to read the first opening lines of the origanal post!

He said quote "In my "quest for the best 5w30"!!! ASL is not Amsoil best 5W30 and it is not as good as the other two oils I listed either! ASL was or is a good product for it's time but it is getting long in the tooth compared to other products offered by other company's and Amsoil!

 

[JohnBrowning]

Pablo, Redline will give him a 5W30 that has a good starting HTHS. It will give him an oil that does not thin or thicken much if any.This way his 30Wt. does not turn into a 40Wt. or higher towards the end of his OCI. It will also give him an oil that is extremly friction modified and will give him great fuel economy inspite of the slightly thicker begining numbers.

He said that he has been useing ASL for some time and that M1 did not work as well in his Honda! Redline and Synergen in 5W30 and 3W30. have turned in some good numbers!I suppose you do not like Amsoil S3K either!!

Pablo he also said quote"In my "quest for the best 5w30". I took this to mean he is still open to trying other oils in an attempt to find the perfect oil so that would explain my other recomendations. I know this is going to sound obsurd to you but just becasue you sell Amsoil does not mean it is the only oil to try! Last I checked you were useing a mix of Delo and Amsoil? SO obviously their are other choices then just ASL!

 

[TxGreaseMonkey]

To me, "quest for the best 5w30" must also focus on price. ASL meets the specs I was interested in for the least amount of money. I don't drive exotic and expensive cars. The oils you are referencing are much more expensive.

 

[JohnBrowning]

TxGM, What are you paying per quart+shiping and handlesing? Would you do a UOA at some point on the Honda? I would love to see how much of a difference their is between M1EP 5W30 and ASL?