5W-20 second thoughts

[ekpolk]

 Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

 Originally Posted By: 2009Edge

Oil analysis will tell ALL

 Originally Posted By: hate2work

 Originally Posted By: gfh77665

 Originally Posted By: StevieC

I wish people would stop bashing 20wt's when it's just not applicable to their situation.

I agree 100% 5-20 would be great in Canada, North USA...I just wish I had the option to use 5-30 in our daily 100 degree Texas heat. I use, but hate 5-20!

I'm guessing because of warranty? Simple solution, just stick in some 5W-30 but keep the old 5W-20 bottles from your current fill to show them. They would never be able to tell what you were using if you had an issue. Personally, I would never use 20 weight oil in a hot climate. Take a look at what they use/recommend in Australia, for example. Shoot, I'm up here in Washington and I still wouldn't use a 20 weight oil.

About what? A single-pass UOA doesn't tell you much more than how much life the oil has left in it and the contamination levels......

It would also reflect the viscosity of the tested fluid. If the vis is way off from the recommended range, the owner may find himself confronted with a wty claim denial.

 

[ekpolk]

 Originally Posted By: hate2work

. . . Personally, I would never use 20 weight oil in a hot climate. Take a look at what they use/recommend in Australia, for example. Shoot, I'm up here in Washington and I still wouldn't use a 20 weight oil.

The anti-20 crowd has been saying such things for about eight years now. Oddly enough, our junk yards are obviously NOT filling up with cars ruined by too-thin oils. And if you examine the results in our UOA section, it's pretty obvious that fears of the anti-20 crowd are simply not supported by real world evidence. If there's hard evidence to the contrary, as opposed to opinion and speculation, by all means, let's see it. Now, I don't think that 20 wt is some sort of magical fluid that's best for every application, because it's not. On the other hand, there's no reason not to run it, even in a "hot climate" in an engine that was designed for it (or proven to use it well in such conditions).

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Almost all manufacurers allow or require a HEAVIER grade for "severe service: My 08 Yaris manual states that for high speed highway, desert and towing that a heavier grade will be required to provide adequate lubrication; It just doesnt state WHAT grade. Generally, I think you would get in more trouble going down a grade than up; especially if 20 isnt on the rec vis chart. As a HARD driver, I would have my yaris engine in pieces a cardboard box if I ran mineral 5w-20. As an aside - I had a bullitt mustang 4.7 300HP and it lOVED the spec'd 20 wt, but the freaking dealer would put 30 in even though I reminded them it took 20, and, 20 is in the manual as the ONLY vis.

 

[HalfHappy]

Is it not true that many 5w-30 convetionals or syn blends, shear to a 5w-20 or so in a couple of thousand of miles? I can feel the extra spunkiness when using 20 wt especially after warmup in my Toyota 4-banger, but 5w-30 runs a tad quieter IMO.

 

[OVERKILL]

 Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite

Almost all manufacurers allow or require a HEAVIER grade for "severe service: My 08 Yaris manual states that for high speed highway, desert and towing that a heavier grade will be required to provide adequate lubrication; It just doesnt state WHAT grade. Generally, I think you would get in more trouble going down a grade than up; especially if 20 isnt on the rec vis chart. As a HARD driver, I would have my yaris engine in pieces a cardboard box if I ran mineral 5w-20. As an aside - I had a bullitt mustang 4.7 300HP and it lOVED the spec'd 20 wt, but the freaking dealer would put 30 in even though I reminded them it took 20, and, 20 is in the manual as the ONLY vis.

I think you mean 4.6L

 

[ARCOgraphite]

 Originally Posted By: ekpolk

The anti-20 crowd has been saying such things for about eight years now. Oddly enough, our junk yards are obviously NOT filling up with cars ruined by too-thin oils. And if you examine the results in our UOA section, it's pretty obvious that fears of the anti-20 crowd are simply not supported by real world evidence.

You have NO way of knowing what the engine failure rate is and never will - the manufacturers will keep this data under wraps to the best of their ability. Unless you are an insider in the business - you'll never see this data. I will tell you I always see at least a couple blown motors out back of any dealer service center. Appropriate running Viscosity is still the #1 factor in a properly lubed engine. Ford seems to have a handle on using 20wt with quiet and smooth operating engines designed for the stuff from the get-go. My peeve is companies like Kia and Toyota who jump on the 20wt bandwagon in North America just for the supposed CAFE impact. These are 30 weight engine designs and typ run poorly on 20 wt. I am a person who lost an (sweet running) engine ('05my 2AZFE) on a dealer install of 5w-20 due to a tech bulletin. The FillCap and OM request 30wt. So data point #1.

 

[BuickGN]

 Originally Posted By: HalfHappy

Is it not true that many 5w-30 convetionals or syn blends, shear to a 5w-20 or so in a couple of thousand of miles? I can feel the extra spunkiness when using 20 wt especially after warmup in my Toyota 4-banger, but 5w-30 runs a tad quieter IMO.

It's a rare occurance that does happen sometimes that got blown way out of proportion by the thin crowd. A quality 5w-30 does not sheer to a 20w at all.

 

[AdRock]

 Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite

Almost all manufacurers allow or require a HEAVIER grade for "severe service: My 08 Yaris manual states that for high speed highway, desert and towing that a heavier grade will be required to provide adequate lubrication; It just doesnt state WHAT grade. Generally, I think you would get in more trouble going down a grade than up; especially if 20 isnt on the rec vis chart. As a HARD driver, I would have my yaris engine in pieces a cardboard box if I ran mineral 5w-20. As an aside - I had a bullitt mustang 4.7 300HP and it lOVED the spec'd 20 wt, but the freaking dealer would put 30 in even though I reminded them it took 20, and, 20 is in the manual as the ONLY vis.

In the 4.6L Mustangs Ford used to spec 5w-30 and the proper oil. Then they had problems with CAFE and switched to saying only 5w-20 so they could eek a little more out of the mileage. the kicker is that the engine clearances didn't change. This is why I still use 5w-30 in mine and probably why the dealer puts in 30.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

 Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

 Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite

Almost all manufacurers allow or require a HEAVIER grade for "severe service: My 08 Yaris manual states that for high speed highway, desert and towing that a heavier grade will be required to provide adequate lubrication; It just doesnt state WHAT grade. Generally, I think you would get in more trouble going down a grade than up; especially if 20 isnt on the rec vis chart. As a HARD driver, I would have my yaris engine in pieces a cardboard box if I ran mineral 5w-20. As an aside - I had a bullitt mustang 4.7 300HP and it lOVED the spec'd 20 wt, but the freaking dealer would put 30 in even though I reminded them it took 20, and, 20 is in the manual as the ONLY vis.

I think you mean 4.6L

Right, sorry Ford guys for the fat-finger mistype: 4.6 with Cast aluminum intake not nylon, I will add! Good thing this ain't a piano recital;)

 

[ekpolk]

 Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite

. . . You have NO way of knowing what the engine failure rate is and never will - the manufacturers will keep this data under wraps to the best of their ability. Unless you an insider in the business - you'll never see this data. I will tell you I always see at least a couple blown motors out back of any dealer service center.

The reason that's wrong can be boiled down to two words: the internet. The word has gotten out on numerous other issues in this way. VW and Toyota had their sludge problems. GM had the bad gaskets on the 60 deg V-6s. Honda had the debacle of the Odyssey auto trans. All now very public, well-known issues because of owners on line. Again, there is NO way that 20 wt oils could have been causing engine failures, especially eight years into the "experiment," and we would not be seeing hearing the results in a very public way.

 Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite

Appropriate running Viscosity is still the #1 factor in a properly lubed engine. Ford seem to have a handle on using 20wt with quiet and smooth operating engines designed for the stuff from the get-go. My peeve is companies like Kia and Toyota who jump on the 20wt bandwagon in North America just for the CAFE impact. These are 30 weight engine designs and typ run poorly on 20 wt. I am a person who lost an (sweet running) engine ('05my 2AZFE) on a dealer install of 5w-20 due to a tech bulletin. The FillCap and OM request 30wt. So data point #1.

Oh come on, Ford (and Honda) did the same thing as Toyota later did. They didn't design a whole new crop of engines for 20 wt oils. They just issued a new spec in 2001. Virtually ALL the engines in production at the time, except for one of the V-6s, just changed over to 20. Exactly what was the mechanism of the alleged failure of your 2AZ? I'm on my second 2AZ, and mine runs absolutely beautifully on both 5w-20 and 0w-20. The 2GR in my wife's Avalon runs superbly on 5w-20 also. You have no way of knowing that 20 wt oil, which Toyota specs for that engine, is what caused a failure.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

 Originally Posted By: AdRock

In the 4.6L Mustangs Ford used to spec 5w-30 and the proper oil. Then they had problems with CAFE and switched to saying only 5w-20 so they could eek a little more out of the mileage. the kicker is that the engine clearances didn't change. This is why I still use 5w-30 in mine and probably why the dealer puts in 30.

I believe the piston design and pin offset changed, afa rod big end, IDK. Need to see the engine service manual. My bullit lost BIG power on the 30 and ran like a dog. like running 50 on a 30 engine.

 

[StevieC]

I have a thread on here in which I talked about my dad's 2000 Ford Windstar with over 276K KM (172K Miles) running on nothing but Motor Craft 5w20 oil it's whole life (10K KM - 6K Mile OCI's). The van passed the Emissions test with flying colours and consumes/leaks no oil at all. All this on an engine that was rated for a 30wt oil in the past by FORD. (3.8 Litre V6) I think that should be enough proof no???

 

[AdRock]

 Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite

 Originally Posted By: AdRock

In the 4.6L Mustangs Ford used to spec 5w-30 and the proper oil. Then they had problems with CAFE and switched to saying only 5w-20 so they could eek a little more out of the mileage. the kicker is that the engine clearances didn't change. This is why I still use 5w-30 in mine and probably why the dealer puts in 30.

I believe the piston design and pin offset changed, afa rod big end, IDK. Need to see the engine service manual. My bullit lost BIG power on the 30 and ran like a dog. like running 50 on a 30 engine.

Nope, nothing changed. All 4.6 short blocks have interchangeable parts. The only things that are different are the heads, whether they be 2v, 4v. And the intake would need to be changed depending on which head setup you have. Now the new 3v 4.6's might have a difference or two but I just haven't looked into the specs enough.

 

[Pablo]

 Originally Posted By: hate2work

I think the love affair with lighter oils might be losing steam around here

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1496766#Post1496766

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Your right - It could have been the bad batch of Thai- made denso with bad adbv and over resined paper media - Suzuki had same problem (same filter) and lost motors. Funny, the engine ran perfect (In fact I told my wife that this is the BEST running 4cylwe've EVER owned) until the dealer did the OC. I ran mc5000 and imported the depth-media style OEM build Fabrique au Japon denso filters. Being a master of subjects automotive, I'll make my own conclusion that doesnt support your argument. Especially given My wonderful car was victimised by this balogna. See any 20Wt in Europe?

 

[ekpolk]

Here's another way to look at this issue. In the time since my last post, I just randomly jumped around the gasoline UOA section, clicking upon the first 20 wt UOA I found on whatever page I was looking at (going back about five years). Obviously, this is a very unscientific "analysis," but nevertheless, it showed what I expected it would -- normal outcomes for all, with an occasional aberration here or there (the most notable was a F-150 using Amsoil 0w-20 that had 73 ppm of Fe in a 15k mile OCI. In other words, I saw pretty much exactly the same thing I'd see if I had perused ten 30 wt UOAs. Guys, I'm not a 20 wt Kool-Aid drinker (present fills: GC in the TCH, GC in the Prius, and PP 5w-20 in the Avalon). But the only conclusion I can draw is that the vast majority of anti-20 sentiments I see here are simply not grounded in reality.

 

[StevieC]

 Originally Posted By: ekpolk

... But the only conclusion I can draw is that the vast majority of anti-20 sentiments I see here are simply not grounded in reality.

+1

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Well, there is the power and smoothness issue too. And fuel dilution. My Yaris wont rev with the stuff(20). Sounds like a bucket of nuts and takes FOREVER from 4000-6000RPM. UOA aint everything - just a tool. You can have sweet UOA then - BANG! Spun rod bearing.

 

[StevieC]

The sounding like a bucket of nuts I might be able to see, but the revving slower I don't buy at all. JMO though!

 

[ARCOgraphite]

A 5-20 should be a more stable oil. 5-30 mineral is impossible without garbage VIIs and PPD. Simple equation: right oil for right application. I would NEVER ignore engine noise though. NEVER. But I'm and engine guy not an oil guy.