5-30 vrs 10-30 question for Dodge Journey

[HTSS_TR]

Honda recommends dino 10W30 for S2000 since 1999, few years later Honda recommends 5W40 for cold climate and 10W30 for warmer climate. These recommendation were valid until they stopped producing S2000 in 2008-2009.

I think the reason 10W30 was recommended for S2000 because it was more shear stable than dino 5W30 14-15 years ago when they test it. Modern dino 5W30 SM/SN is fairly shear stable, no need to use 10W30.

When I do the next oil change I'll use a mix of M1 0W20 and 0W40 in the ratio of 3:2.

 

[GMorg]

Maybe it is just too expensive to modify the machine that cranks out the oil fill caps.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Interesting takes here. When a manufacturer specs 5w20 over 5w30 and somebody asks about 5w30, we get a wave of responses about following the spec and the manufacturer knows what they're doing yada yada.

Spec a 10w30 and suddenly thats all out the window and they don't know what they're doing and we get a host of "better" recommendations.

I agree you could likely get away with a good 5w30 just fine but if I was under warrantly I'd follow the recommendation, I'm sure they have their reasons, most likely HTHS or shear which has been mentioned.


You seem to be comparing apples and oranges here. A 20W and 30W oil are different grades. 5W30 an 10W30 are both 30W oils. It's not at all unusual to see a manufacturer's 10W30 be lighter (both kinematic viscosity @ 100C and HTHS) than its 5W30. So, your comment above doesn't really make much sense to me.

While it's conceivable that a 10W30 may have fewer VI's and be more shear-resistant, that's hardly a given either. I've seen instances where NOACK is higher with the 10W30 than the 5W30 within the same product line. So, in most cases the reality is that the 10W30 is simply a cheaper product to manufacture. Call this "second-guessing the manufacturer" if you want; I call it being an informed consumer.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: GMorg
Maybe it is just too expensive to modify the machine that cranks out the oil fill caps.

That's funny and there may be some truth to it!
But as dparm first asked, what does the owners manual say?
I think one will find more oil grade options and details in that.

 

[KCJeep]

Originally Posted By: JOD

You seem to be comparing apples and oranges here. A 20W and 30W oil are different grades. 5W30 an 10W30 are both 30W oils. It's not at all unusual to see a manufacturer's 10W30 be lighter (both kinematic viscosity @ 100C and HTHS) than its 5W30. So, your comment above doesn't really make much sense to me.

While it's conceivable that a 10W30 may have fewer VI's and be more shear-resistance, that's hardly a given either. I've seen instances where NOACK is higher with the 10W30 than the 5W30 within the same product line. So, in most cases the reality is that the 10W30 is simply a cheaper product to manufacture. Call this "second-guessing the manufacturer" if you want; I call it being an informed consumer.


My main point was the shift in responses here at BITOG, not a very good comparison sorry but my point remains valid. Second guessing manufacturers, especially under warranty, is frowned on here quite a bit but let them spec a 10w30 and that's all out the window.

I understand the 5w30 advantages, in fact my Jeep is "factory spec'd" for 10w30 and I'm running a 5w30 in it right now (albeit a thick one) but I don't have any warranty concerns. For something so new as a Journey I'd be following the spec.

 

[fdcg27]

I agree with your points.
I'm just wondering why Chrysler, which is obviously aware that other grades exist persists in recommending 10W-30 for this particular engine.
If I had one, I'd use 10W-30 summers and 5W-30 winters, but only because I have some of each.
If I were going out and buying oil to do each change, I'd just use 5W-30.
I'd love to hear what someone from Chrysler has to say about the rationale for the 10W-30 recommendation for this specific engine.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep

My main point was the shift in responses here at BITOG, not a very good comparison sorry but my point remains valid. Second guessing manufacturers, especially under warranty, is frowned on here quite a bit but let them spec a 10w30 and that's all out the window.

I understand the 5w30 advantages, in fact my Jeep is "factory spec'd" for 10w30 and I'm running a 5w30 in it right now (albeit a thick one) but I don't have any warranty concerns. For something so new as a Journey I'd be following the spec.


Fair enough. I get the "warranty angle" thing. That said, within a group of products 10W30 is normally the cheaper-to-manufacture, higher margin product for the manufacturer. While you may have to fight a warranty battle, if one plans on keeping the car past the warranty time I'd probably use a superior product that cost the same. Engine warranty claims are rare and I think one could fight it if it really came to it (but I doubt it would be the case). Lots of folks recommend (and use) 0W20 oils where 5W20 is spec'd, which is probably the more accurate parallel. I did it myself while I was under warranty, and I didn't lose any sleep over it. I know there are those who feel differently on that one.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
I agree with your points.
I'm just wondering why Chrysler, which is obviously aware that other grades exist persists in recommending 10W-30 for this particular engine.


Having worked previously in a light-manufacturing business and having been involved in some ridiculous product decisions that seemed to defy logic, I'm guessing the answer could be almost anything; from the "oil cap" hypothesis to dealer service department request. Maybe they view this engine as particularly robust, so that they think it'll be less affected by an oil that's heavier at start-up...and maybe the service departments like being able to use a cheaper bulk oil and add a bit to the bottom line. Maybe they're holding a CAFE card in their pocket, so when they need an additional .2mpg they can change the spec? Maybe they just were too lazy to change the wording in the owner's manual or pay a technical writer to review it?

I think yours is a good question, but I'm guessing the answer is probably right out of a Dilbert cartoon and has little to do with engine performance.

 

[fdcg27]

You may well be right on the "Dilbert" angle.
This would be a sad note for a large industrial company, though.

 

[GMorg]

Several posts have requested the manual's recommendations, but in the first post the OP stated that the manual AND the oil cap recommended 10w30.

 

[ranger99]

Correct GMorg, I did say that the manual and cap stated to use 10-30 in my original post. Also, my cousin who is a mechanic for Chrysler said that the 3.5 is tough on oil due to the engine runs a little hot (all 3.5's according to him)so that is why Chrysler specs the 10-30 rather than the 5-30 for reasons of weight shearing. Thing is, I thought that modern 5-30 is more shear stable than in the past. He said to use 10-30 in the summer and 5-30 in the winter. I just find it hard to believe that 5-30 wouldn't be fine all the time.

I have a 94 Mustang GT that specs 10-30 and several years later it is back spec'd to 5-20, that is hard to swallow and I will probably run 10-30 or 5-30 in the mustang forever. To me that seems extreme.

Anyhow, I do have a stash of both grades but I have way more 5-30 that is why I asked this question to begin with.

 

[G-MAN]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
I'm just wondering why Chrysler, which is obviously aware that other grades exist persists in recommending 10W-30 for this particular engine.


Chrysler produced this engine from 1998 to 2010 and always spec'd 10w30 for it, even after moving from 5w30 to 5w20 in the 2.7.

I've owned two Chryslers with this engine (a 99 300M and an 07 300). If you do a search you will find my posts concerning my experiment running 5w20 in my 99. The best UOAs I ever got out of that engine were on 5w20.

 

[ranger99]

Funny you say that G-man. I know a couple of guys that work for Chrysler or at dealerships, they say they put 5-20 in everything because that is mostly what they carry, since most of their engines now call for 5-20. One of my friends said that is all his dealership carries. So, if a customer wants 10-30, they get 5-20 instead.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

No Mystery here, guys. 5w30 is one of the most shear prone, unstable, varnish prone lubricant formulated. A "proper" 10w30 is de rigueur for light duty trucks and vans. The noack is typ 10-12 instead of at the 15% max spec and the much lower vii add give you more oil and less polymeric garbage that forms varnish and gum and sticks rings and kills hths value. It is unfortunate that most 10w30 are now ILSAC service has prob ruined its intention and benefit so you must turn to a dual rated oil to get something decent. Or a Proper synthetic 5w30. Or ATM.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
No Mystery here, guys. 5w30 is one of the most shear prone, unstable, varnish prone lubricant formulated. A "proper" 10w30 is de rigueur for light duty trucks and vans. The noack is typ 10-12 instead of at the 15% max spec and the much lower vii add give you more oil and less polymeric garbage that forms varnish and gum and sticks rings and kills hths value. It is unfortunate that most 10w30 are now ILSAC service has prob ruined its intention and benefit so you must turn to a dual rated oil to get something decent. Or a Proper synthetic 5w30. Or ATM.


This post would make sense if they spec'd a "proper" 10W30 that met their own spec for low NOACK. Chrysler's MS6395 spec for the Journey is 14.5% NOACK... Add in to that the fact that some 10W30's have higher NOACK than 5W30 WITHIN THE SAME PRODUCT LINE, never mind across different product lines, and this just doesn't hold any water.

If Chrysler wanted to ensure use of an oil with fewer VI's than allowed by the API/ILSAC, they'd have a tighter requirement for their own spec...but they don't.

 

[CATERHAM]

Quote:
If Chrysler wanted to ensure use of an oil with fewer VI's than allowed by the API/ILSAC, they'd have a tighter requirement for their own spec...but they don't.

JOD I'm sure you meant to say "fewer VIIs".
Anyway, good points as usual and I particularly like the Dilbert cartoon explanation.

Another interpretation could simply be, the 10W-30 is such an antiquated oil grade that it's recommendation implies any multi-grade 30wt oil will do; namely, 0W-30, 5W-30 or 10W-30.

 

[Jim Allen]

Wonder if you're covered warranty-wise if the dealer puts in 5W20 when the engine is spec'ed for 10W30? Likely so, because in the end the dealer can often "fudge" to make warranty happen (or de-fudge if so inclined).

Why not go with one of the syn or semisyn 10W30s that has the viscometrics of a 5W30? You satisfied the letter of the law as far as warranty is concerned but are still enjoying the bennies of a 5W30.

 

[CATERHAM]

Jim I think it is only BITOG members that fret about the oil grade as far as affecting the warranty. A head mechanic at a local dealership freind of mine when asked about it said that the first thing they would look at in a warranty claim would be a record of the oil being changed on schedule, not he oil grade.

I agree a 10W-30 syn' could be an improvement over a 10W-30 dino but it still won't have the viscometrics of even a 5W-30 dino.
The main difference is the inherently lower VI of the 10W-30 grade which means it is heavier at all start-up temp's not just below freezing.
I'd advise just using a name brand 5W-30 syn'. IMO there would be no chance of a warranty issue in doing so.
As JOD pointed out, it's the same situation as using a 0W-20 when a 5W-20 is specified. And doing that will NOT void any warranty.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
...
Why not go with one of the syn or semisyn 10W30s that has the viscometrics of a 5W30? You satisfied the letter of the law as far as warranty is concerned but are still enjoying the bennies of a 5W30.
I might guess you mean a big VI # and not the "W" pumapability; You cant label a 5w as 10w if you are API licensed.

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
I might guess you mean a big VI # and not the "W" pumapability; You cant label a 5w as 10w if you are API licensed.


Right. An example is Amsoil HDD. It's really pretty much a straight grade syn base but it performs like a 5W30 with few VIIs.