5.0 (Coyote) Mustang Oil Viscosity Question

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Originally Posted By: INDYMAC
I believe this Coyote engine came from down under.


It Ford of North America designed, Canadian built.

Quote:
I wouldn't be looking for an engine oil that meets CAFE standards and might even last through the warranty period. Like you, I would be trying to find the best oil for the engine to last as long as possible, and run great too. So, I understand your dilemma. Good luck with that fun car!


I tend to agree. Somewhere around 430 honest flywheel horsepower, 302 cubic inches, 7000 rpm, likely hard use in a Mustang, no factory oil cooler. 5W-20 will be fine for a long time obviously, but that's not to say the engine won't benefit from a slightly thicker oil.

Originally Posted By: Mike Riley - Product Design Engineer with Ford Motor Company


Moving to 5w20 was driven by ... CAFE requirements. The company believes the switch to lighter viscosity 5w20 oils will reduce carbon dioxide emissions by 190,000 metric tons a year and reduce US fuel consumption by over 21,000,000 gallons a year.


Originally Posted By: FRPP Group

DO NOT go back to using 5w-20


Originally Posted By: Scott Whitehead - Engine Development Systems Engineer, Ford Motor Company


I've seen the dyno testing. I've probably looked at several hundred engines disassembled and spread out on inspection tables. And I've been involved in testing to resolve issues where varying the oil viscosity was part of the test. Please do not put 5w-20 or less into a mod motor. Please. This is especially true in 4v motors. 5W-30 is probably a good oil for the street with mixed temperatures.
 
FWIW, I own a 2011 5.0 GT. Since the first oil change I've used 5W30 Pennz. Platnium. The engine runs great (and quieter) on the 5W30. Cam phasing vs. oil viscosity is a non issue, this engine uses the stored energy of the valve springs to nudge the cam when the camshaft sprocket is momentarily released to alter timing. The engine is made in Canada on Triton tooling-no Aussie connections.

Ford is using 5w30 oil on the Ecoboost turbos, and 5w50 on the Shelby's. If you are driving the Mustang as a grocery-getter w/ lots of short trips, then 5W20 will be fine, but if you tend to drive the car hard and esp. if you race or track, the unofficial word from the engineers is you really want to run a 5W40/50.

I'm somewhere in between, so 5W30 seems like a good compromise. In the Mustang application, 5W20 has everything to do with CAFE. (I do use 0W20 in my 3.0l Duratec Tribute though, lots of short trips and cold starts)
 
What is spec'd for this motor in other countries? Any API-certified 5w30? Or is Ford's requirement more stringent (particular API level, HTHS requirements, TBN, etc)
 
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: Sunnyinhollister
Looks like Ford released a service message to the dealers about this issue allowing 10w-40:

http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/20...lems-again.html



The TSB in the referenced thread was for 4.6 and 5.4 3-valve engines from 2006-2009, not 2011 5.0 engines. The problem there was clicking solenoids for the VCT system that make audible noises from 800-1200 rpm. I take it that the problem with the 5.0 is different.


I've seen this, and yes, it is for the 4.6L. However, this is the same general idea that I have. Unfortunately Ford has not put out such a TSB yet for the 5.0.

IMO, this also contradicts the "engineers know best" and the "it's been well tested" schools of thought. The 4.6L has been around for some 20 years vs the 1 year for the new 5.0. Originally, the 4.6L called for 5W-30. Sometime later Ford changed this to 5W-20. When that caused problems they put out a TSB for 10W-40. I doubt running 5W-20 is going to cause problems apart from the noise, but to me the noise in itself is a problem. Sure, it may not leave me stranded on the side of the road, but just like finding a new rock chip makes me cringe, so does going through a drive-through and hearing this noise.

I thank you all for your input. I do have my answer (5W-20 is the only oil spec'd for the new 5.0.) Now the real question. Do I give a heavier oil a shot and risk Ford giving me flack in the event I have engine issues? I guess I'm the only person that can answer that.
 
Originally Posted By: Drew2000
FWCam phasing vs. oil viscosity is a non issue, this engine uses the stored energy of the valve springs to nudge the cam when the camshaft sprocket is momentarily released to alter timing.
This doesnt make sense. I have not yet seen a contemporary system that did not use oil pressure to vary the cam timing. Not saying your wrong - but I would be shocked, SHOCKED! if what you conveyed here was true.
 
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Originally Posted By: Drew2000
FWIW, I own a 2011 5.0 GT. Since the first oil change I've used 5W30 Pennz. Platnium. The engine runs great (and quieter) on the 5W30. Cam phasing vs. oil viscosity is a non issue, this engine uses the stored energy of the valve springs to nudge the cam when the camshaft sprocket is momentarily released to alter timing. The engine is made in Canada on Triton tooling-no Aussie connections.

Ford is using 5w30 oil on the Ecoboost turbos, and 5w50 on the Shelby's. If you are driving the Mustang as a grocery-getter w/ lots of short trips, then 5W20 will be fine, but if you tend to drive the car hard and esp. if you race or track, the unofficial word from the engineers is you really want to run a 5W40/50.

I'm somewhere in between, so 5W30 seems like a good compromise. In the Mustang application, 5W20 has everything to do with CAFE. (I do use 0W20 in my 3.0l Duratec Tribute though, lots of short trips and cold starts)


I agree with you entirely. My only concern is this could give Ford reason to deny a warranty claim should I have engine problems. I've had dealers really try to screw me over in the past and now try to be very careful to follow their guidelines.
 
tws-
How do you know the oil viscosity being presented to the engine? With 8 qt pan the oil may rarely get below a SAE30 range as is? Does your '11 GT have an oil sump temp gauge? 5w-20 out of the bottle on a hot summer day is twice as thick as an SAE50 in a hot engine.
 
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Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Originally Posted By: Drew2000
FWCam phasing vs. oil viscosity is a non issue, this engine uses the stored energy of the valve springs to nudge the cam when the camshaft sprocket is momentarily released to alter timing.
This doesnt make sense. I have not yet seen a contemporary system that did not use oil pressure to vary the cam timing. Not saying your wrong - but I would be shocked, SHOCKED! if what you conveyed here was true.


The 5.0 (and the TiVCT Cyclone V6s) uses Borg Warner cam torque actuated cam phasers.
 
Keep in mind, in the turned up version of the Coyote 5.0, they spec 5W-50, so it won't mind going thicker than 5W-20 in heavy use.
 
Originally Posted By: dparm
Yes but are the tolerances looser in the tuned-up version?


I think you may mean clearances.....

I cannot really answer your question (assuming you meant clearances) but the 5.0L in the BOSS 302 has forged internals, which means more piston expansion/contraction. So I wouldn't be surprised if it had more piston-to-wall clearance than the "regular" version.
 
Very interesting reading through this thread. I was wondering about this when I saw someone post about 5w-20 in the new 5.0 a little while ago.
 
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Originally Posted By: Drew2000
FWCam phasing vs. oil viscosity is a non issue, this engine uses the stored energy of the valve springs to nudge the cam when the camshaft sprocket is momentarily released to alter timing.
This doesnt make sense. I have not yet seen a contemporary system that did not use oil pressure to vary the cam timing. Not saying your wrong - but I would be shocked, SHOCKED! if what you conveyed here was true.


Be shocked. The new generation of cam phasers do use camshaft torque to vary the cam timing. They react much more quickly than the old generation of hydraulic phaser, and don't require as much oil pump capacity.
 
Originally Posted By: twsnnva
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: Sunnyinhollister
Looks like Ford released a service message to the dealers about this issue allowing 10w-40:

http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/20...lems-again.html



The TSB in the referenced thread was for 4.6 and 5.4 3-valve engines from 2006-2009, not 2011 5.0 engines. The problem there was clicking solenoids for the VCT system that make audible noises from 800-1200 rpm. I take it that the problem with the 5.0 is different.


I've seen this, and yes, it is for the 4.6L. However, this is the same general idea that I have. Unfortunately Ford has not put out such a TSB yet for the 5.0.

IMO, this also contradicts the "engineers know best" and the "it's been well tested" schools of thought. The 4.6L has been around for some 20 years vs the 1 year for the new 5.0. Originally, the 4.6L called for 5W-30. Sometime later Ford changed this to 5W-20. When that caused problems they put out a TSB for 10W-40. I doubt running 5W-20 is going to cause problems apart from the noise, but to me the noise in itself is a problem. Sure, it may not leave me stranded on the side of the road, but just like finding a new rock chip makes me cringe, so does going through a drive-through and hearing this noise.

I thank you all for your input. I do have my answer (5W-20 is the only oil spec'd for the new 5.0.) Now the real question. Do I give a heavier oil a shot and risk Ford giving me flack in the event I have engine issues? I guess I'm the only person that can answer that.


Why don't you ask your Ford dealer if running 5w30 would cause warranty issues? I don't think that it would. I think that it's important that you get your engine noise complaint on record at the dealer so that if anything happens later, they'll know that you tried to deal with the problem early on.
 
Originally Posted By: A_Harman


Be shocked. The new generation of cam phasers do use camshaft torque to vary the cam timing. They react much more quickly than the old generation of hydraulic phaser, and don't require as much oil pump capacity.
I am shocked! I'm sure these are well tested, but at first glance sounds like a "fall apart" mechanism. My toyota provides over 30 degress of variable cam timing at both ends of the rev range and idle and is load and style logic controllable (when its working right:) This B-W system appears load invariant - a "cheap" system, not unlike GM's employment of high leakdown rate roller tappets on top of high duration profiles (which I think I prefer as an engineer). I must me read more on this subject and the borg warner device so I dont end up taking out my flapping pant leg ...
Thanks Guys!
 
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You're correct. I guess I was thinking of the "Miami" 5.0L engine used in the Aussie Ford Falcon GT. It stole some parts from the Coyote though.
 
I doubt that running a 5w-30 is going to give you any problems. I say this because Ford themselves is instructing dealers to put in GEAR oil to quiet down engines. If they're willing to replace 2 qt's of 5w-20 with 75w-140 then I doubt they'll give you a hard time about some 5-30.
 
I heard that rumour about gear oil and fords - thats a dumb*&&%^ service manager decision. You shouldnt run hypoid gear lube in an engine! BTW. 90 weight gear lube is like a 40 grade oil, viscocity wise.
 
I have heard about Ford Techs using gear oil to see if that quiets certain new 5.0s that have noise complaints. Not sure how different the clearances are between the BOSS 5.0 and the one that is used in the GT. I now there are differences in the internals, cylinders heads, intake, cams, etc., but the BOSS uses 5w-50. Not sure if it is due to the engineers thinking about the engine on tracks days where the oil temps would be higher.
 
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