4L80E rebuild for 1100hp questions

[primetime]

Is there a way to tell the difference between an upgraded level one 4340 input shaft vs a level 2 300m billet input shaft? Do they sound different when tapping on it?

Also is the Sonnax 34322-02K that is manufactured from forged 4140 steel as good as CK's 4L8CC/BCH-1 rollerized forward hub?

 

[primetime]

You can run a stock Boost Valve assuming it's in good shape, If Jake sends a Pressure Regulator Spring.....Run it. Do Not run ANY stock or aftermarket PR Spring with a 4L80E-LB1, With constant/fixed line pressure......The Boost Valve is of little consequence......The PR Spring decides the pressure.
I'd like to see @ 220 PSI at 1200 RPM.

All the other valves in the pump can be left alone.

Jakes instructions cover Lo/Reverse Band Clearance.

Jakes instructions cover the reverse band clearance but I like your idea of using the servo cover and making your own tool welding a 3/8 bolt on the top of it.

When you use an aftermarket modified valve body, do you check for the following:

1. What kind of shift solenoid feed filter is in the valve body? Was a replacement OEM filter used, or was something similar to what is in the transgo HD2 kit used which has a steel end plug and O-ring and another end plug that goes on the end of the filter along with a spring (better design, keeps filter from cracking over time)

2. Was the 3/4 shift end plug o-ring replaced?

3. Was the force motor feed screen filter replaced?

4. Was the d-rings on the accumulator pistons replaced? (if no accumulator delete)

5. Was an actuator feed limit valve kit used? Which one?

6. Was the TCC valve replaced with an "anti shudder valve" like the one included in Superior Shift Correction Kit S34165E or was the stock one reused

I'm not sure what vendors do what, but Jake probably takes care of all the above with his product where applicable.

I'm thinking it would be a good idea to disassemble and check. I'm not sure if the anti shudder TCC valve can be sourced on it's own, or if you need the correction kit but that S34165E also comes with a new stock pressure regulator valve for the pump and also an end plug with O-ring for the boost valve located in the pump. Just seems like picking up S34165E may be a good idea, even if only some of the parts will be used and keeping the components like the springs used just as they are in the VB.

Replacement solenoid feed filter components with what’s in transgo kit:

 

[clinebarger]

I run Jakes T-Brake VB's just how they are shipped, That way if I have issues.....I don't have to detail any modifications in pursuit of a quick diagnostic & remedy of the issue.

Now....When I build a unit with a in-house prepped VB.....
*I install a new AFL Screen at the end of the manual valve bore (Solenoid Feed) from the rebuild kit. Cracked filters haven't been an issue in Many years. Though it is quite disturbing what happens when they're cracked.....Like the shifter moving itself into Reverse at speed.
You can replace the AFL Filter or run the TG filter mods if you want.

*All the other filters & O-rings are replaced.

*I use the Sonnax TCC Regulator Valve kit with the lighter spring included.

*I block the 3rd & 4th Accumulators on just about every build, IF blocking the original housing by driving checkballs into the clutch feed holes....I do install new rings on the pistons to eliminate the possibility of Accumulator Oil leaks as we're still using Accum. Oil pressure for the 2nd Accumulator.

 

[primetime]

I run Jakes T-Brake VB's just how they are shipped, That way if I have issues.....I don't have to detail any modifications in pursuit of a quick diagnostic & remedy of the issue.

Now....When I build a unit with a in-house prepped VB.....
*I install a new AFL Screen at the end of the manual valve bore (Solenoid Feed) from the rebuild kit. Cracked filters haven't been an issue in Many years. Though it is quite disturbing what happens when they're cracked.....Like the shifter moving itself into Reverse at speed.
You can replace the AFL Filter or run the TG filter mods if you want.

*All the other filters & O-rings are replaced.

*I use the Sonnax TCC Regulator Valve kit with the lighter spring included.

*I block the 3rd & 4th Accumulators on just about every build, IF blocking the original housing by driving checkballs into the clutch feed holes....I do install new rings on the pistons to eliminate the possibility of Accumulator Oil leaks as we're still using Accum. Oil pressure for the 2nd Accumulator.

Thanks for this! Happy holidays!

 

[primetime]

So with this aluminum super 36 sprag drum there are 2 lines of thought to handle the wear that will occur on the drum even though it's anodized aluminum. Just passing along the info I came across:

1. Keep intermediate band and perform some modifications so that the piston lives
2. Delete intermediate band and perform some modifications to address removal of it.

1. Keeping the intermediate band results in having to get a better performing red alto material band to theoretically prevent premature wear of the aluminum drum. 97 and up use a 1.25" wide band and 96 and lower call for the 1" wide band. My core is from a 2005. Alto doesn't make a high performance 1.25" wide band, only the 1.0" so one would use the matching apply pin for it and use alto 031960 which is the 1" high performance band.

We want the clutch to apply faster than the band, so as to not try to apply the band while the drum is still spinning opposite the driveshaft. And we want the band to release faster than the direct clutch applies so as to not drag the band while the drum begins to spin in 3rd. I see that the #3 check ball on the 4L80E is the front band apply control which slows oil feed to the front band (2nd gear engine brake band (to control apply feel and also allows faster exhaust of the front band during release) So if the band apply orifice (31b) on jakes D3 plate is a bit smaller than the 2nd clutch apply orifice (24c), one would think that it is ok to use that red alto band and the matching apply pin with this aluminum 36 sprag drum. And while this may work in a race car application, it doesn't sound like it's a good idea for a street car.

2. Deleting the intermediate band results in more mods needing to be performed, one of which is blocking the intermediate servo feed in the case so that an internal leak doesn't result ad a loss of line pressure. The feed passage is just above the servo bore, when the case is standing up right on the tail-housing flange. It's best to tap the passage for a set-screw, but some like to drive a check-ball into the feed passage from inside the servo bore. With the intermediate band removed, an intermediate snap ring support should be installed in the case. This is done by removing the intermediate band anchor pin and installing the snap ring support. This will stabilize the snap ring in the area of the case reducing the chances of a snap ring blowout. A heavy duty intermediate snap ring will obviously be used in place of the stock snap ring. Also one should remove the entire intermediate servo piston assembly since the intermediate band has been removed. These include the Pin, Retainer ring, Oil seal, Piston, spring retainer clip, and Front servo piston spring. One will also need to block the feed in the separator plate. On the D3 brake, perhaps it would be good to delete the #3 check-ball, plug that hole, and plug the small orifice hole next to it.

The super drum uses a 5 intermediate and 5 steel clutch pack configuration, each being .080" thickness. The pressure plate is reduced in thickness to account for the thickness of the 5 clutches and steels. These are raybestos Ford c6 clutches R600340, and a 5 intermediate steels .080 The standard intermediate 4L80E frictions and steels of course will not work with this drum. For my intermediate setup, no wave will be used and TH400 springs and int spring retainer will be used. In the direct drum, a machined TH400 early aluminum piston with 8 ATI high spring rate springs, a TH400 spring retainer, and 6 friction that are .077 along with 6 steels that are .080 will be used. Approximately .20" will need to be shaved off the work surface area of the piston to get a .060 clutch pack clearance. No wave plate. Stock 4L80E pressure plate.

A very harsh 1-2 shift can result from this setup due to the 5 intermediate friction setup, but will depend on stall speed and several factors. The 2nd accumulator and the accumulator valve-train configuration are also going to affect this. I will inspect the 2nd feed orifice 24c and go from there. Might have to reduce it to 0.082" (@180 to 190 PSI fixed line pressure).

The first option of keeping the band is easer to do with fixed line pressure; and works-out okay in a drag-application (were the transmission is shifting 1-2 at the same speed every single time). On the street, this apparently does not work well, so I will most likely go with option #2.

I've been studying this hydraulic diagram here: https://atracom.blob.core.windows.net/gears/2010/2010-07/2010_7_8.pdf

Pics of the drum, friction, and plate setup:

 

[clinebarger]

The Intermediate Brake Band only comes on in D2, If launching in D3......The band will never come on.

The whole point of this brake is to launch in D3 & have the shift tuning just right so you don't have to manually shift.

If you are concerned.....Shim the Intermediate Band Apply Servo flush with the Case using washers or a machined shim & leave the Band out altogether.

I don't know how he came up with a Alto Red Band being easier on a Aluminum Drum than a stock wide 4L80E Band??


Don't remember if I covered this.....A Intermediate Steel WILL NOT sit directly on a 4L80E Intermediate Piston! There is ZERO reason not to use the factory Intermediate Wave. Those grooved C6 frictions will cause an even firmer 1-2 shift.

IF you do want to delete the Intermediate Wave.....You must use a TH400 Intermediate Piston to set the clutch clearance correctly as the 4L80E piston will have a "running start" at the clutch pack without the wave.

 

[primetime]

The Intermediate Brake Band only comes on in D2, If launching in D3......The band will never come on.

The whole point of this brake is to launch in D3 & have the shift tuning just right so you don't have to manually shift.

If you are concerned.....Shim the Intermediate Band Apply Servo flush with the Case using washers or a machined shim & leave the Band out altogether.

I don't know how he came up with a Alto Red Band being easier on a Aluminum Drum than a stock wide 4L80E Band??


Don't remember if I covered this.....A Intermediate Steel WILL NOT sit directly on a 4L80E Intermediate Piston! There is ZERO reason not to use the factory Intermediate Wave. Those grooved C6 frictions will cause an even firmer 1-2 shift.

IF you do want to delete the Intermediate Wave.....You must use a TH400 Intermediate Piston to set the clutch clearance correctly as the 4L80E piston will have a "running start" at the clutch pack without the wave.

The alto band suggestion wasn't from Jake, but another builder. This is a D3+ brake which can launch in D2 or D3.

I wish the drum was fitted with a outer sprag race that accepted the borg warner intermediate frictions but it doesn't. Will set it up with the wave as you advise. What would you suggest to do in order to soften the 1-2 shift as much as possible despite needing to use those frictions.

 

[clinebarger]

The wave is a good start, About the only other thing is to be conservative 2nd clutch feed orifice. But.....Running an Aluminum Drum & a 36 element sprag will allow you to have slam dunk 1-2 without much fear of breaking the sprag.

 

[primetime]

Ok, l'll look into removing the band and blocking the intermediate overrun band servo in place (un-applied). Are the piston seals and the bore generally in good shape and not leaking on used cores to be able to to this? This would be the only mod I need to perform then after deleting the band? What are your thoughts on the case savers like this one:

https://www.ckperformance.com/View/INTERMEDIATE-CLUTCH-SNAP-RING-SUPPORT

 

[primetime]

I almost missed what you had said about using a TH400 wave in the forward, so I figured it would be best to recap everything we discussed incase I missed something else lol.

The following is a list of 4L80E hard parts and modifications to perform on a stock 4L80E electronically shifted application with a transbrake that will support 1200+ hp is desired while conforming to SFI rules for the bellhousing. A transmission blanket will be used also. Application is a 2000 camaro.

Hard parts:

- Jakes Aluminum Super Sprag 36 drum
- Jakes 300M input shaft
- Jakes Billet rollerized forward hub
- Reid bellhousing with Jakes adapter plate/machined oil pump
- Jakes D3+ Transbrake

Modifications

Perform all instructions as noted that come with D3 transbrake and do not modify the valve body

Drill a "Lube to Line Bypass" in the pump cover 1/16”
Drill a bleed release hole in the direct drum 1/16”
Enlarge the feed passage on the rear stator support with a 1/8” drill bit at 45 deg angle
Enlarge the seal drain back hole in the pump cover with a 1/4” drill bit
Enlarge the lube hole in the Overrun Clutch housing with a 1/8" drill bit at 45 deg angle
Enlarge the feed passage on the center support with a 1/8” drill bit

Remove/do not install the center lip seal from the direct clutch housing
Remove/omit the second from the top Sealing Ring on the Center Support
No need to plug the valve body where the pressure relief valve is installed when using a D3 brake
No need to use a Sonnax 4L80E LB1 boost valve & PR spring when using a D3 brake.
No need to use an Oversized AFL valve kit or TCC regulator valve bore kit as the D3 brake will already account for this.
There is no need to install a 0.375” cup plug into the case for the dual feed mod if using Jakes D3 brake as the valve body and separator are already modified to account for this.

There are 2 holes on the rear planet used to secure a 2 tang plastic washer. To use a better 4 tang metal washer 34268, use a drill press to make the 2 extra needed holes.

Use a 34127 TH400 wave plate in the forward 34127 (0.060" 12 lug) as it’s stronger than the 4L80E wave plate. Standard 0.077 steels and .080” clutches (5 of each) can be used in the forward along with this wave plate. Clearance should be 0.040” - 0.060”

Use an early TH400 direct piston and machine the work surface for a 0.045 tolerance (dry) using 6 frictions that are 0.080” and 5 steels that are 0.077” and one steel that is .090” which will make initial contact with the piston. Start by machining 0.20” off the work surface area of the piston. The center lip seal on the piston will be omitted. No wave plate will be used in the direct. Make sure that the piston has a check ball in it if the direct drum has no check ball. If the direct drum has a checkball, use a piston with no checkball or remove the checkball in the piston and plug the hole.

Use high spring rate springs with the direct TH400 aluminum piston (The # of springs to use will depend on spring rate) along with a TH400 spring retainer and TH400 snap ring.

Use a heavy duty Snap Ring to secure the intermediate pressure plate – use part number A22878C

The intermediate band should not be used with the aluminum 36 sprag direct drum on a street driven application. The intermediate band must be removed along with other modifications. Shim the intermediate band apply servo flush with the case using washers or a machined shim and then use a snap ring support where the intermediate band anchor pin was. If there are concerns with the piston seal and the bore leaking, remove the entire intermediate servo piston assembly ( Pin, Retainer ring, Oil seal, Piston, spring retainer clip, and Front servo piston spring) and tap the passage for a set-screw. Another method is to drive a check-ball into the feed passage from inside the servo bore. Block the band apply orifice (31b) in the separator plate. Delete the #3 check-ball, plug that hole where the check ball was, and plug the small orifice hole next to it.

The use of c6 alto red frictions R600340 in the intermediate that fit the 36 sprag race will result in a harsher 1-2 shift. You will use a 4L80E wave plate in this setup. If you cannot get the needed clearance of 0.040” to 0.060”, use some R600335 which is thinner at @0.062" and with no oil grooves and replace some of the R600340 frictions.

Reduce the hole in the 2nd-feed orifice (24c) in the separator plate and make it smaller if it’s not drilled conservative to reduce the size for a more conservative 1-2 shift.

Use a TH400 spring retainer and TH400 springs in the intermediate.

Replace the plugs in the pump if they are worn. O-ring plugs from Sonnax can be used if desired but are not necessary. New OEM plugs can be used, or use Sonnax 34200-05K and 34994-14K where applicable.

Use red loctite on the pump body bushing and seal. Stake the bushing. Use a wide body bushing.

Don’t use a standard bushing on the over drive drum which would normally be 34037, use a fluted bushing (groves on the ID) like the one used in the sun gear shaft. This part number is 34037C

Don’t use a standard case bushing, use 34006-SP Sonnax no walk case bushing but install it backwards with red Loctite in a rollerized output setup.

Rollerize the rear output. You will need to purchase part 44200F which is K35412 shims and 9436851 (which is 44211C) to perform this modification.

Ensure that the rear servo pin length is correct.

Air check the various locations in the transmission for leaks

Check all end play tolerances and make sure everything is within pecs. Tolerances are as follows:

Total Rear Unit.....003"-.008" (Rollerized)
Reaction Carrier to Center Support......008"-.015"
Direct Drum to Forward Hub......003"-.008" (Rollerized)
Front unit.....005-.008" more/greater than the Rear Unit

Replace all other pistons, sprags, seals, metal clad seals, washers, bushings, bearings, o-rings, electronics (D3 brake comes with new TCC and shift solenoids) reverse bands, Center Support to Case bolt, 4th Clutch Housing to Case Bolt, filter, internal wiring harness. It’s cheaper to buy steel and friction plate kits and just purchase the additional steels, frictions required than to buy all the clutch pack assemblies individually.

The following bushings should be pressed in, and not banged in.

Sun gear shaft
Both bushings on the stator
Center support bushing

Parts list:

Checklist:

 

[clinebarger]

It was the early 4L80E Dished Plates that broke.....I probably said Wave.....But I meant Dished. You can set-up the Forward Clutch 100% stock.

Now once you machine a TH400 Piston for extra Frictions in the Direct Drum.....The Factory Wave can slip under the relief cut in the drum.....So you must run a TH400 Wave If you're running a Wave in the Direct Clutch.

The Paper & Rubber kit will come with a new Intermediate Band Piston Seal, It's PTFE & needs to be sized but it's not difficult & it seals quite well.

I've used the CK snap ring support before....But I don't issues with the Snap Ring blowing out, But I also run a wave in the Intermediate Wave & either a A727 snap ring or a CK Spiro-Loc ......The Wave is the difference maker, Don't want the Backing Plate slamming into the Snap ring & Case Lugs.
If you do use the support....Apply some Ultra Grey RTV under the bolt head to prevent leaks.

 

[primetime]

It was the early 4L80E Dished Plates that broke.....I probably said Wave.....But I meant Dished. You can set-up the Forward Clutch 100% stock.

Now once you machine a TH400 Piston for extra Frictions in the Direct Drum.....The Factory Wave can slip under the relief cut in the drum.....So you must run a TH400 Wave If you're running a Wave in the Direct Clutch.

The Paper & Rubber kit will come with a new Intermediate Band Piston Seal, It's PTFE & needs to be sized but it's not difficult & it seals quite well.

I've used the CK snap ring support before....But I don't issues with the Snap Ring blowing out, But I also run a wave in the Intermediate Wave & either a A727 snap ring or a CK Spiro-Loc ......The Wave is the difference maker, Don't want the Backing Plate slamming into the Snap ring & Case Lugs.
If you do use the support....Apply some Ultra Grey RTV under the bolt head to prevent leaks.

Ok, I will run the stock forward clutch setup then and stock late 4L80E forward wave. In the direct, I wasn’t planning on running a wave. I don’t want to machine too much off the aluminum piston and risk one of the plates not engaging. I plan to use a .090” thick steel against that piston, and 5 of the .077” steels and 6 of the .080” frictions. Shooting for .045-.060” clearance dry. A727 ring being used for sure and wave in the intermediate for sure. Will use the ATV thanks! Will most likely omit the intermediate band and perform the correct mods to account for its omission.

In the diagram on transpartsonline dot com for the 4L80E it lists part number 217 twice even though the bearing in the OD planet isn’t the same as the bearing used in the other location. There is no oem part# as you know for that bearing inside the OD planet, only the sonnax part number. Sonnax used to make an OD planet rebuild kit but I’m not finding it on their site anymore. Maybe they sell the washers and pins separate for those that rebuild them. Then again a new one can be had for $120....

Who all makes the OD planets that have been modified with a Billet-Steel top/ splined section? TCS has one for $500 but that’s better money I think used elsewhere. I’m near the end of the tolerance limit of the OD planet so I was thinking of rebuilding it and I know about having to keep all the parts that don’t get replaced in their exact locations.

Also that site only sells shims that are 0.10” for #252 which we discussed and said not to shim there and use the OEM 0.42” thick washer there. Have you heard of using an early 4L80E main shaft that is hollow and shaving .060” off the end as this has a better lube circuit than the late 4L80E? The 0.060" is shaved off of the front (opposite side from the snap-ring groove)

 

[primetime]

I believe I have this correct in the charts I made below. Snap ring table...the ones in yellow aren’t pictured as I never removed them or reinstalled them. Makes for a nice reference for me to see what is what and much of this information was acquired through our discussions so thanks again!

Where are the most common shim areas in the event that any of the 4 locations for end play is not within tolerance? The one where you rollerize the output to make the width of the bearing and shim the same as what you take out I’m aware of, but are there other locations where thicker bearings or washers are used? I only see 252 which is a location we discussed not to shim and then 211 by the pump which has various sizes washers for that location.

 

[primetime]

Chris do you have banjo fittings on yours? The $45 ebay ones?

 

[clinebarger]

Only on the rear (Cooler Return)

For Rear Unit End-Play.....Add at least .010" to the original thickness as a starting point, They were set-up quite loose from the factory.

Horsepower is not what breaks the O/D Carrier.....It's Shock Load & Weight. I've had pretty good luck with stock carriers on lighter cars.....YMMV.

Don't mess with the Lube Circuit.....Trust me.....No one is giving 100% of the needed information & NONE have fully tested their theories. The Center Lube models last just as long if not longer.

 

[primetime]

Only on the rear (Cooler Return)

For Rear Unit End-Play.....Add at least .010" to the original thickness as a starting point, They were set-up quite loose from the factory.

Horsepower is not what breaks the O/D Carrier.....It's Shock Load & Weight. I've had pretty good luck with stock carriers on lighter cars.....YMMV.

Don't mess with the Lube Circuit.....Trust me.....No one is giving 100% of the needed information & NONE have fully tested their theories. The Center Lube models last just as long if not longer.

Sounds good! What location in the diagram would be best to add the .010 shim? Where #269 was? We want the thickness of the 44211C bearing and shims to be the same thickness as #268 and #269 right? Then add a .010” shim in that location and remove 268 and 269. Bearing goes black side down on top of the shim if I recall correctly.

 

[clinebarger]

Measure 268 & 269 stacked together, Add .010" to that....And that will be the starting thickness for the Bearing & Shims stacked together.

 

[primetime]

This is the sun gear mod I was referencing awhile back:

 

[clinebarger]

Well....If you were going to enlarge the lube hole in the Sun Gear.....Use a Carbide Drill Bit, Preferably on a Mill.

He's not looking at the Lube Circuit as a whole, There are 4 deep Notches in the Center Lube Sun Gear that floods the 2 bearings then spills over into the Reaction & Output carriers.

2001 & up units had a bad habit of the TCC Clutch coming apart & completely clogging the radiator mounted cooler, This will starve the Carriers of all lube.
When I tear down a unit & find lube related wear or failure of the Carriers.....99% of the time it's the cooler that's clogged. GM should have installed a diverter pipe between the 2 cooler fittings with a spring loaded check valve to allow lube flow in case of cooler restriction. Ford did this on the 4R100.

 

[primetime]

Good info! I forgot to ask, if I have the front planet machined for a torrington bearing and then remove the 2 tang plastic washer off the rear planet all together, (which is what is suggested for this mod) does this change the end play tolerance specs at all?