2025 BMW M60i (S68 Engine) LL-01 vs LL-01 FE

[T-REX 702]

Please forgive me if this topic has been discussed, but I tried searching through the threads and couldn't come up with an answer.

So after searching through BMW forums and this forum, it appears LL-01 can be used where LL-01 FE is recommended. Is this the consensus? The reason I ask is we just purchased a 2025 BMW X5 M60i. It's got the de-tuned 4.4 Twin Turbo V-8 that's in the X5 M and I want to start off right by taking care of this monster. I'm not interested in saving 1 or 2 mpg at the sake of engine protection.

On a few BMW forums, the previous version of this engine (S63) has been prone to bearing failure, and it has been speculated to be due to the lower viscosity FE oil coupled with 10k mile oci. Most FE oils are 0W-30 with a lower HTHS, hence the FE (fuel efficient) moniker.

I'm retired and have the time to do my own oil changes. Plus I don't really trust dealer oil changes, but that's a topic for another discussion. I have my reasons and they are substantial.

Is it generally acceptable to use LL-01 in place of LL-01 FE? Are they interchangeable? Are there any standout differences, other than the lower viscosity? I have owned Mercedes vehicles that loved 40 weight oils. I'd like to use a quality 0W-40 or 5W-40 oil in this HOT-V turbo engine that is known to run very hot. I want the best possible protection for my new ride.

Besides, the FE seems difficult to find.

 

[andreigbs]

LL-01 can be used where LL-01 FE is recommended. Is this the consensus?

Welcome and congrats!

In a nutshell, absolutely.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

LL01 has a higher HTHS (3.5 or greater). These oils can be either 40 or 30 grade. HTHS on off the shelf products regardless of grade falls around 3.5-3.7
LL01fe has a slightly lower HTHS (3.5 to >2.9).
In practice the HTHS of LL01fe oils come in around 3.3-3.4.

Basically there's a difference but it's not huge.

I would run Castrol 0w30 LL01 or M1 0w40 LL01.

BMW spends a lot of resources on oil cooling so 40 grades while available are probably unnecessary for a street car on stock power.

 

[edyvw]

Please forgive me if this topic has been discussed, but I tried searching through the threads and couldn't come up with an answer.

So after searching through BMW forums and this forum, it appears LL-01 can be used where LL-01 FE is recommended. Is this the consensus? The reason I ask is we just purchased a 2025 BMW X5 M60i. It's got the de-tuned 4.4 Twin Turbo V-8 that's in the X5 M and I want to start off right by taking care of this monster. I'm not interested in saving 1 or 2 mpg at the sake of engine protection.

On a few BMW forums, the previous version of this engine (S63) has been prone to bearing failure, and it has been speculated to be due to the lower viscosity FE oil coupled with 10k mile oci. Most FE oils are 0W-30 with a lower HTHS, hence the FE (fuel efficient) moniker.

I'm retired and have the time to do my own oil changes. Plus I don't really trust dealer oil changes, but that's a topic for another discussion. I have my reasons and they are substantial.

Is it generally acceptable to use LL-01 in place of LL-01 FE? Are they interchangeable? Are there any standout differences, other than the lower viscosity? I have owned Mercedes vehicles that loved 40 weight oils. I'd like to use a quality 0W-40 or 5W-40 oil in this HOT-V turbo engine that is known to run very hot. I want the best possible protection for my new ride.

Besides, the FE seems difficult to find.

100%.

 

[svenson]

I would run Castrol 0w30 LL01 or M1 0w40 LL01.

BMW spends a lot of resources on oil cooling so 40 grades while available are probably unnecessary for a street car on stock power.

can you please explain why? since most of you in this forum suggest ll01 oils which fall in the category of 40 grades,if you mean that we dont need a higher hths than 3.5 then i understand that.but a 3.7 ,which usually a 40 begins, is not that much of a difference anyway.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

can you please explain why? since most of you in this forum suggest ll01 oils which fall in the category of 40 grades,if you mean that we dont need a higher hths than 3.5 then i understand that.but a 3.7 ,which usually a 40 begins, is not that much of a difference anyway.

My two cents.

I don't see a need to buy into the assumption that one must use a 40 grade simply because of "high horsepower" or because one lives in a hot climate. Especially if you can get the same or almost the same HTHS in 30 grade. It's just me splitting hairs which is what BITOG is all about.

For example IIRC a long long time ago M1 ESP 5w30 (LL04) had a HTHS of 3.7 and so did M1 0w40 (LL01).

Unfortunately M1 no longer publishes HTHS, same for Castrol, Shell (Pennzoil), and Liqui Moly so perhaps my suggestion is rather moot.
HPL, Ravenol and Redline do have a significant spread in HTHS between (A3/B4, C3) 30 and 40 grades (3.5/6 vs 3.8+).

I did find a Motul 5w30 at 3.5 and an 0w40 at 3.6.

 

[edyvw]

My two cents.

I don't see a need to buy into the assumption that one must use a 40 grade simply because of "high horsepower" or because one lives in a hot climate. Especially if you can get the same or almost the same HTHS in 30 grade. It's just me splitting hairs which is what BITOG is all about.

For example IIRC a long long time ago M1 ESP 5w30 (LL04) had a HTHS of 3.7 and so did M1 0w40 (LL01).

Unfortunately M1 no longer publishes HTHS, same for Castrol, Shell (Pennzoil), and Liqui Moly so perhaps my suggestion is rather moot.
HPL, Ravenol and Redline do have a significant spread in HTHS between (A3/B4, C3) 30 and 40 grades (3.5/6 vs 3.8+).

I did find a Motul 5w30 at 3.5 and an 0w40 at 3.6.

M1 ESP 5W30 until 11/2015 had HTHS 3.6. M1 0W40 until 11/2015 had 3.8. After that:
ESP: 3.5.
0W40: 3.6 (SP too).
3.8 currently are Motul X-Cess 5W40 GEN2, and Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W40 (probably 3.88). Castrol 5W40 is according to some communication with Castrol 3.64.

Again, I personally would use Castrol Edge 0W30.

 

[svenson]

LL01 has a higher HTHS (3.5 or greater). These oils can be either 40 or 30 grade. HTHS on off the shelf products regardless of grade falls around 3.5-3.7

ok,i understand your point, my question was based mostly to the fact that we dont have any 30 grade LL01 available in Europe anymore.for 30 grade in europe you have to go for ll04.
a few ,US ones ,like redline or valvoline and one motul i think but they are not sold everywhere ,its hard to reach .
so if you want a LL01 oil you have to buy a 40 grade .and many members here praise the ll01 against ll04.


before bmw suggests 30 grades from 2004 - before people used to buy 40 grades for their bmws.so many old owners,who dont read bitog , are stuck to this 40 grade bcs. they were used to and they were very satisfied. of course the climate and high horsepower are arguments that you hear often ,but the main reason is that ,''this is the oil we always used 40 grade, a 5-30 will be thinner''.they talk based on grade and not hths which i doubt they know what it means.
and thats why 40 grades are still very popular in europe .
also 40 grades are cheaper here almost 10 euros for 5lt than the 30 grades.

of course new owners ,are more educated,they use the internet,read forums like bitog and they know. the fact that they they didnt lived in the 40 grade ''era'' and the first suggestion from bmw they meet is 5-30, they accept it .

but the argument for climate and the thicker 40 remains to be honest .until the moment when they meet an expert in a forum and explains to them about hths.

my question is : we see most of the 40 and 30 grades share almost the same hths,as you agreed too. let me ask the other way around the same question.sorry for my english. why someone not to choose a 40 grade with almost same hths(1degree plus more or less) and choose a 30 grade which is more expensive(almost 8-10 euros for 5lt) here in europe ?

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

my question is : we see most of the 40 and 30 grades share almost the same hths,as you agreed too. let me ask the other way around the same question.sorry for my english. why someone not to choose a 40 grade with almost same hths(1degree plus more or less) and choose a 30 grade which is more expensive(almost 8-10 euros for 5lt) here in europe ?

I suspect the cost difference is mostly due to the chosen blend of base stocks. For example in the past it was assumed, perhaps incorrectly in some cases, that a 0w30 will typically contain some PAO. Exhibit A: Castrol Edge 0w30 (LL01)

 

[930.engineering]

.
I'd go for BMW LL-04 (same HTHS of >3.5 mPas) such like M1 ESP 5W-30.
Excellent, easy to obtain and fairly cheap. Most Europeans use to run LL-04.

my question was based mostly to the fact that we dont have any 30 grade LL01 available in Europe anymore. for 30 grade in europe you have to go for ll04.

A quick search revealed two 5W-30 with BMW LL-01 and I bet there are many
more blenders selling similar offerings:

RAVENOL HCL SAE 5W-30

RAVENOL HCL SAE 5W-30 is a synthetic low friction motor oil with CleanSynto® technology for passenger car petrol and diesel engines with and without turbo-...

www.ravenol.de

RAVENOL RSP Racing Super Performance SAE 5W-30

RAVENOL RSP Racing Super Performance SAE 5W-30 was developed together with Ralf Schumacher for motorsport and is ideally suited for car racing, even when s...

www.ravenol.de

 

[chris719]

Hot-vee engine, I'd go with the M1 0W-40 or PP Euro 5W-40.

 

[T-REX 702]

Hot-vee engine, I'd go with the M1 0W-40 or PP Euro 5W-40.

Exactly what I was thinking. PP Euro 5w-40

 

[svenson]

I suspect the cost difference is mostly due to the chosen blend of base stocks. For example in the past it was assumed, perhaps incorrectly in some cases, that a 0w30 will typically contain some PAO. Exhibit A: Castrol Edge 0w30 (LL01)

but motul xcess gen 2 is also expensive and its a 40 ,and from what i read here perhaps some pao,not as much as the exhibit ,but nevertheless a stout oil.

.
I'd go for BMW LL-04 (same HTHS of >3.5 mPas) such like M1 ESP 5W-30.
Excellent, easy to obtain and fairly cheap. Most Europeans use to run LL-04.




A quick search revealed two 5W-30 with BMW LL-01 and I bet there are many
more blenders selling similar offerings:

maybe one of the most expensive ones here in europe the M1 5-30.

you will loose that bet. bcs. as i said in that paragraph, you forgot to mention,:

a few ,US ones ,like redline or valvoline and one motul i think but they are not sold everywhere ,its hard to reach

so ,the harder it gets to reach the most expensive it can be if you order it from another country, or even city.

its a different world europe for oils. dont compare.thats why my inquiry .

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

but motul xcess gen 2 is also expensive and its a 40 ,and from what i read here perhaps some pao,not as much as the exhibit ,but nevertheless a stout oil.

Well of course which is why we're talking in general. Ravenol is another company who sells PAO in 40 grade but these are just two examples in a sea of 40 grades. LiquiMoly has maybe one PAO product in 40 grade.

Perhaps a difference (type/amount) in VII's another reason why 40 grades are cheaper in your market?

 

[930.engineering]

maybe one of the most expensive ones here in europe the M1 5-30.

Irrelevant for the OP since he lives in America.
For your interest: M1 ESP 5W-30 is ~8€ per liter at German online vendors.
Not as cheap as in US Walmart shops, but certainly not horrendously expensive.

you will loose that bet. bcs. as i said in that paragraph, you forgot to mention

I use to win my bets and I'm fully aware of the differences between Murica
and Europe with regard to oil choices and prices.

So, you claimed this:

......we dont have any 30 grade LL01 available in Europe anymore.for 30 grade

My answer:

A quick search revealed two 5W-30 with BMW LL-01 and I bet there are many
more blenders selling similar offerings:

RAVENOL HCL SAE 5W-30

RAVENOL HCL SAE 5W-30 is a synthetic low friction motor oil with CleanSynto® technology for passenger car petrol and diesel engines with and without turbo-...

www.ravenol.de

RAVENOL RSP Racing Super Performance SAE 5W-30

RAVENOL RSP Racing Super Performance SAE 5W-30 was developed together with Ralf Schumacher for motorsport and is ideally suited for car racing, even when s...

www.ravenol.de

That's the first two - available in Europe. Some more:

- Liqui Moly Special Tec LL 5W-30 (LL-01, MB 229.5, VW 502 00, 505 00, same as Ravenol HCL)
- Shell Helix Ultra 5W-30 (LL-01, MB 229.5, VW 502 00, 505 00, Renault RN0700, RN 0710)
- BMW 5W-30 Twin Power Turbo 01

That's five and again, I'd bet there are some more. If not, it doesn't matter. BMW LL-01
and 5W-30 aren't rare, no unicorns at all but plain vanilla.
However regardless to what I said before: Most BMW owners in Europe run LL-04, just
since BMW garages stock it, it's required for Diesel engines and probably better suited
to DI gasoline engines. Last not least LL-04 provides more choice with excellent offerings
like M1 ESP and Ravenol REP. Both are hard to beat.
LL-04 at 5W-30 or 5W-40 doesn't matter. Both LL-01 and LL-04 have a min HTHS of 3.5.
REP 5W-30 has 3.7 mPas - that's 40 weight territory. Some 5W-30 might be superior in a
'hot V' engine. Less VI improvers, lower Noack, less deposits.
.

 

[edyvw]

ok,i understand your point, my question was based mostly to the fact that we dont have any 30 grade LL01 available in Europe anymore.for 30 grade in europe you have to go for ll04.
a few ,US ones ,like redline or valvoline and one motul i think but they are not sold everywhere ,its hard to reach .
so if you want a LL01 oil you have to buy a 40 grade .and many members here praise the ll01 against ll04.


before bmw suggests 30 grades from 2004 - before people used to buy 40 grades for their bmws.so many old owners,who dont read bitog , are stuck to this 40 grade bcs. they were used to and they were very satisfied. of course the climate and high horsepower are arguments that you hear often ,but the main reason is that ,''this is the oil we always used 40 grade, a 5-30 will be thinner''.they talk based on grade and not hths which i doubt they know what it means.
and thats why 40 grades are still very popular in europe .
also 40 grades are cheaper here almost 10 euros for 5lt than the 30 grades.

of course new owners ,are more educated,they use the internet,read forums like bitog and they know. the fact that they they didnt lived in the 40 grade ''era'' and the first suggestion from bmw they meet is 5-30, they accept it .

but the argument for climate and the thicker 40 remains to be honest .until the moment when they meet an expert in a forum and explains to them about hths.

my question is : we see most of the 40 and 30 grades share almost the same hths,as you agreed too. let me ask the other way around the same question.sorry for my english. why someone not to choose a 40 grade with almost same hths(1degree plus more or less) and choose a 30 grade which is more expensive(almost 8-10 euros for 5lt) here in europe ?

5W30 in general will be more shear stable. That is all thing equal. Let’s say Castrol 0W30 and 0W40. 0W30 will have lower Noack, more stability, will stay longer in grade.
That doesn’t mean there are no XW40 oils that are not more stable and have lower Noack. Everything depends on the quality of the product. But two oils from same family of products, like Mobil1 FS or Castrol Edge 0W30/40 or 5W30/40, less spread between numbers mean more stability and lower Noack.

 

[edyvw]

Exactly what I was thinking. PP Euro 5w-40

Don’t forget, thicker oil=more heat.

 

[svenson]

Perhaps a difference (type/amount) in VII's another reason why 40 grades are cheaper in your market?

what do you mean? differences between us and european vii's of the same oil? i could be.but i can think of one right now.have an example?

Irrelevant for the OP since he lives in America.
For your interest: M1 ESP 5W-30 is ~8€ per liter at German online vendors.
Not as cheap as in US Walmart shops, but certainly not horrendously expensive.




I use to win my bets and I'm fully aware of the differences between Murica
and Europe with regard to oil choices and prices.

So, you claimed this:



My answer:



That's the first two - available in Europe. Some more:

- Liqui Moly Special Tec LL 5W-30 (LL-01, MB 229.5, VW 502 00, 505 00, same as Ravenol HCL)
- Shell Helix Ultra 5W-30 (LL-01, MB 229.5, VW 502 00, 505 00, Renault RN0700, RN 0710)
- BMW 5W-30 Twin Power Turbo 01

That's five and again, I'd bet there are some more. If not, it doesn't matter. BMW LL-01
and 5W-30 aren't rare, no unicorns at all but plain vanilla.
However regardless to what I said before: Most BMW owners in Europe run LL-04, just
since BMW garages stock it, it's required for Diesel engines and probably better suited
to DI gasoline engines. Last not least LL-04 provides more choice with excellent offerings
like M1 ESP and Ravenol REP. Both are hard to beat.
LL-04 at 5W-30 or 5W-40 doesn't matter. Both LL-01 and LL-04 have a min HTHS of 3.5.
REP 5W-30 has 3.7 mPas - that's 40 weight territory. Some 5W-30 might be superior in a
'hot V' engine. Less VI improvers, lower Noack, less deposits.
.

you will loose that bet. bcs. as i said in that paragraph, you forgot to mention,:

a few ,US ones ,like redline or valvoline and one motul i think but they are not sold everywhere ,its hard to reach

so ,the harder it gets to reach the most expensive it can be if you order it from another country, or even city.

its a different world europe for oils. dont compare.thats why my inquiry .
5W30 in general will be more shear stable. That is all thing equal. Let’s say Castrol 0W30 and 0W40. 0W30 will have lower Noack, more stability, will stay longer in grade.
That doesn’t mean there are no XW40 oils that are not more stable and have lower Noack. Everything depends on the quality of the product. But two oils from same family of products, like Mobil1 FS or Castrol Edge 0W30/40 or 5W30/40, less spread between numbers mean more stability and lower Noack.

as you see,about the bet i was refering for it is hard to reach.if you want an oil like these 5 you found you have to buy them from certain markets and countries ,they are not spread widely in every country,this means you have to pay for postage if you order it from abroad.and the cost rises so its not affordable ,so its like they dont excist for me .you have big chain market shops like Walmart where you can find almost everything and in a good price.we dont have such a system since europe consists of different countries with different shops and markets.but oil is not cheap unless you are a german or french or british and you buy from big online shops and you live there.all the other european countries dont have such big shops.only domestic indiniduals who have some of them and they are not cheap.
p.s what or who is OP?

 

[svenson]

5W30 in general will be more shear stable. That is all thing equal. Let’s say Castrol 0W30 and 0W40. 0W30 will have lower Noack, more stability, will stay longer in grade.
That doesn’t mean there are no XW40 oils that are not more stable and have lower Noack. Everything depends on the quality of the product. But two oils from same family of products, like Mobil1 FS or Castrol Edge 0W30/40 or 5W30/40, less spread between numbers mean more stability and lower Noack.

exactly like the xcess gen 2 ,xclean gen2 i guess. arent they more stable than xclean+ 5-30? noack is almost the same as i recall

 

[edyvw]

exactly like the xcess gen 2 ,xclean gen2 i guess. arent they more stable than xclean+ 5-30? noack is almost the same as i recall

They changed formulations. GEN2 5W40 is much better now. I can post here UOA that was done by SOPUS between PPE and GEN2. Both did excellent. But so did X-Clean 0W30 EFE. I did UOA of that few months ago.
Remember: as thin as possible, as thick as necessary. If I didn’t have bunch of Motul on shelf, I would use Castrol 0W30 when I don’t track car.