2013 VW CC 2.0 TSI LiquiMoly 5W40 2,800 mi OCI 38,500 miles on car

[kosmaras]

Hello!

Apologies in advance for the saga that follows. I'm hoping you experts can provide some meaningful feedback on my UOA that can help me diag.

I drive a 2013 CC with the EA888 TSI engine. Car is quite modified with a K04 turbo and all supporting mods. Purchased the car in 2019 with 19k miles and it has 38k now. The first winter I drove the car, I noticed a slight rattle between 2 and 3,000 rpm. I shrugged it off as it didn't seem to get worse. Fast forward to now..I was under the car checking an exhaust leak and was revving it on jack stands and all of a sudden the rattle really stood out. Video here:

2,800 miles ago I had an indy shop install Supertech valve springs. In the process they resealed the cam cover (probably contributing to the Silicon levels) and did an oil change with LiquiMoly Molygen 5w40. When I heard the noise, I had a VW tech friend come by and listen with a scope. He said the rotating assy sounded fine, but acknowledged the rattle. I pulled the pan to inspect for any metal shavings if it's coming from the big end of the rods. When I pulled the magnetic drain plug, there was some very fine "fuzz" on it that wiped off silver. I took a sample of this oil and sent it into Blackstone. Attached is the report.

The high aluminum and iron for the OCI now is making me think it's a piston/cylinder wall issue rather than rod bearing. Really curious what all of your thoughts are on this and what direction it should guide me in.

Next steps for me is to borescope the cylinders to see if there is excessive wear and confirm or deny the piston slap theory. Compression is consistent at about 165psi across all cylinders.

 

[kschachn]

Any cylinder wear is more likely visible on the pistons at this point. The aluminum isn't probably that high given the history of Blackstone accuracy, and the iron isn't at a catastrophic level - but how did they analyze the metal shavings? Did they do an acid digestion? Otherwise you can have pieces coming off that aren't going to show up in a spectrographic analysis. ICP machines don't measure particles. SEM-EDX can also determine what the particles are although if they are stuck to the magnet then that's all the clue you need.

 

[RooflessVW]

Did you check the thrust bearing when the pan was off?

 

[kosmaras]

Did you check the thrust bearing when the pan was off?

On this engine there is an "upper oil pan" that prevents you from accessing the rotating assembly. The rear main seal bolts to the block AND the upper oil pan on the trans side.

 

[kosmaras]

Any cylinder wear is more likely visible on the pistons at this point. The aluminum isn't probably that high given the history of Blackstone accuracy, and the iron isn't at a catastrophic level - but how did they analyze the metal shavings? Did they do an acid digestion? Otherwise you can have pieces coming off that aren't going to show up in a spectrographic analysis. ICP machines don't measure particles. SEM-EDX can also determine what the particles are although if they are stuck to the magnet then that's all the clue you need.

Thank you for the reply! Maybe it wasn't clear in my post, I did not sent Blackstone any sample of the metal collected on the drain plug, just an oil sample.

 

[skyactiv]

Could be the dual mass flywheel. VW uses them on both the manual and DSG transmissions. I had a 2013 VW GTI with a 6 speed manual and the flywheel died at 50K. I could have had it replaced under warranty, but I planed and did keep the car long after the warranty expired and replaced it with a traditional flywheel and clutch kit from South Bend Clutch. Looks like they no longer offer the kit.

A failed dual mass flywheel can take out the engine, so I'd stop driving it, find out the problem and get it fixed.

 

[FowVay]

With all of your modifications did you think to upgrade your clutch? Does that thing have a dual mass flywheel by chance?

edit: skyactiv and I had the same thought. Also, check the oil pump chain and pump shaft when you have the oil pan off.

 

[kosmaras]

With all of your modifications did you think to upgrade your clutch? Does that thing have a dual mass flywheel by chance?

edit: skyactiv and I had the same thought. Also, check the oil pump chain and pump shaft when you have the oil pan off.

Could be the dual mass flywheel. VW uses them on both the manual and DSG transmissions. I had a 2013 VW GTI with a 6 speed manual and the flywheel died at 50K. I could have had it replaced under warranty, but I planed and did keep the car long after the warranty expired and replaced it with a traditional flywheel and clutch kit from South Bend Clutch. Looks like they no longer offer the kit.

A failed dual mass flywheel can take out the engine, so I'd stop driving it, find out the problem and get it fixed.

Great questions from both of you. I should have put this in the original post, but 15k miles ago (before I went K04) I installed a new LUK DMF and did a DIY "RSR" clutch, which consists of a modified TTRS pressure plate and a stock GTI clutch disc. Provides all of the quietness of a stock clutch but holds over 400tq. HSTuning sells pretty much the same thing and they call it an "RSR".

At idle there's a little noise from the DMF that does go away when you press the clutch pedal in, but nothing out of the ordinary at idle. I would love for it to be related to the trans or clutch since that's something I've done before and can knock it out in a day.

Regarding the oil pump and chain, I did look at it and the chain was tight. Turned the engine over by hand and everything looked good. I did notice with the engine running you can hear the oil pump if you get your ear close to that side of the oil pan, which I suspect is normal operating noises.

I also checked oil pressure when warm:
Idle - 22psi
2000 rpm - 40 psi
3000 rpm - 43 psi

 

[RooflessVW]

Also kinda sounds like the wastegate rattle these were known for new.

 

[kosmaras]

Also kinda sounds like the wastegate rattle these were known for new.

The K04 that this car has is not known to have that issue. That mostly plagued the stock IHI. The wastegate rattle noise is also more "tinny" rather than guttural, which is what I hear. But appreciate the suggestion!

 

[doublebase]

Any noise up top? Almost sounds valve train to me. Doesn’t sound like a typical main bearing (IMO), plus you said oil pressures were good. Does it go away when it warms up?

I know NOTHING about those engines, and piston slap/rod knock can (I guess) sound like that, but I find that piston slap tends to go away once it warms up.

Crazy thought...is there some sort of valve in that area you’re shooting the video? Some sort of ball valve or control solenoid or something that can rattle/move around in a casing? Because it almost sounds like that?? Can you put a stethoscope down there?

 

[kosmaras]

Any noise up top? Almost sounds valve train to me. Doesn’t sound like a typical main bearing (IMO), plus you said oil pressures were good. Does it go away when it warms up?

I know NOTHING about those engines, and piston slap/rod knock can (I guess) sound like that, but I find that piston slap tends to go away once it warms up.

Crazy thought...is there some sort of valve in that area you’re shooting the video? Some sort of ball valve or control solenoid or something that can rattle/move around in a casing? Because it almost sounds like that?? Can you put a stethoscope down there?

Appreciate the input! Regarding when the noise occurs, there is a definite rattle (piston slap) in the winter for the first 30-60 seconds. This noise captured in the video (that's more concerning to me), seems to only happen when the engine is at operating temperature.

Regarding any sort of oil flow control valves or solenoids, those would be on the other side of the engine (timing/oil pump side). This video was shot from the transmission side.

 

[Greasymechtech]

Have you changed the MTF?
Reminds of the noise when going from DMF to SMF.... some looser transmissions rattle with RPM and mimics lower end rod knock.

What oil filter?

Test engine by using a thicker viscosity. Swap in a 10w60 and a different branded filter. If noise goes away or changes, then you don't have to worry about the transmission or clutch setup.

 

[kosmaras]

MTF was changed when the clutch went in 15,000 miles ago. I put in Rowe Topgear FE (never heard of it, but it was offered by ECS). Oil filter has always been Mann or Hengst...the last one was a Mann.

I will swap a thicker oil in to see if it helps, great suggestion!

 

[Greasymechtech]

If engine noise changes, then you have your answer. Rebuild time!
If engine noise doesn't change, and since the power level was increased, then I'd dump the 75w FE gear oil for something thicker and see what happens. Thicker gear oil might reduce transmission nvh harmonic rattle a little which could be worn out transmission components or dmf.

Nothing special about Mann or Hengst filters other than fanboism. Since the 10w60 is a 'summer' test run consider the STP, Fram, Carquest, or Microgard filter.

Did anyone make a 'remote filter conversion' for these pipe equipped cans?

 

[Brons2]

Sounds like rod knock to me, which would track with the powder in the pan being pulverized bearing material.

Greasymechtech's idea to try an extra thick oil is a good one, you'll hear a difference if it's clearance related.

 

[kosmaras]

If engine noise changes, then you have your answer. Rebuild time!
If engine noise doesn't change, and since the power level was increased, then I'd dump the 75w FE gear oil for something thicker and see what happens. Thicker gear oil might reduce transmission nvh harmonic rattle a little which could be worn out transmission components or dmf.

Nothing special about Mann or Hengst filters other than fanboism. Since the 10w60 is a 'summer' test run consider the STP, Fram, Carquest, or Microgard filter.

Did anyone make a 'remote filter conversion' for these pipe equipped cans?

I will definitely try thicker gear oil and engine oil. The VW tech believed the sound was coming more from the trans side rather than the engine side.

Reason for the Mann and Hengst is because I buy my oil and filters from FCP Euro so they're free every oil change.

Sounds like rod knock to me, which would track with the powder in the pan being pulverized bearing material.

Greasymechtech's idea to try an extra thick oil is a good one, you'll hear a difference if it's clearance related.

The powder came from the magnetic drain plug and I was under the impression that bearing material wouldn't necessarily be metallic. Someone did tip me off to believe that maybe the high iron and the metal on the drain plug could have been from my recently installed valve springs. Apparently there's a possibility that they lose some metal as they first wear in?

 

[UG_Passat]

Great questions from both of you. I should have put this in the original post, but 15k miles ago (before I went K04) I installed a new LUK DMF and did a DIY "RSR" clutch, which consists of a modified TTRS pressure plate and a stock GTI clutch disc. Provides all of the quietness of a stock clutch but holds over 400tq. HSTuning sells pretty much the same thing and they call it an "RSR".

At idle there's a little noise from the DMF that does go away when you press the clutch pedal in, but nothing out of the ordinary at idle. I would love for it to be related to the trans or clutch since that's something I've done before and can knock it out in a day.

Regarding the oil pump and chain, I did look at it and the chain was tight. Turned the engine over by hand and everything looked good. I did notice with the engine running you can hear the oil pump if you get your ear close to that side of the oil pan, which I suspect is normal operating noises.

I also checked oil pressure when warm:
Idle - 22psi
2000 rpm - 40 psi
3000 rpm - 43 psi

The CCTA takes a Sachs flywheel from the factory.

The BPY (EA113) had a LuK flywheel from the factory. The RSR doesn't have a modified pressure plate, it's just a TTRS pressure, plate which is a LuK Self-Adjusting Clutch, and a GTI-TDI clutch disc. One thing about the pressure plate is, it needs to be properly reset prior to installation (the springs fully compressed), which many people overlook because they didn't know.

 

[kosmaras]

The CCTA takes a Sachs flywheel from the factory.

The BPY (EA113) had a LuK flywheel from the factory. The RSR doesn't have a modified pressure plate, it's just a TTRS pressure, plate which is a LuK Self-Adjusting Clutch, and a GTI-TDI clutch disc. One thing about the pressure plate is, it needs to be properly reset prior to installation (the springs fully compressed), which many people overlook because they didn't know.

LUK makes a TSI DMF now as an OE-alternative piece. The only modification the TTRS pressure plate needs the dowel pin holes drilled out, which is what I did prior to install.

Now that you mention it...I went back and reviewed the pictures I have of the clutch installed and it looks like the springs must have moved from their "set" position just before install.......Shoot.

 

[TomYoung]

I don't think that your oil analysis was all that bad. I am mystified by the suggestion of going to a thicker oil. That Liqui Moly product is an excellent choice for this car (as it should be given the price). I would consider going back to OEM suggestion on trans fluid and just keep driving. With this mileage, the car should be in great shape. Turbo VW's are durable, but certainly require maintenance. Just out of interest, did you retain all the parts to reverse the mods?