Greetings everyone. We have a 2009 RAV4 with the 2.5 2ar-fe. It's been a great car with no major repairs in 156K miles. At about 120K, it was using about 1/2-3/4 a quart of oil during the 5000 OCI using 5W-20 conventional. In the last year or so, the consumption has increased substantially. Currently, I need to add almost a quart at 2500 miles, and it'll be down about another quart at 5000 when it's time to change. I did switch to 5W-20 Maxlife but it didn't really help much. Recently as I was poking around, I noticed that the plastic intake plenum is pretty soaked in oil at the split where it is bolted together, which is the lowest point. I assume that the PCV valve is shot and it is ingesting oil into the intake. However, on this motor the PCV valve is under the intake plenum, so it's about a 5 hour job to take the top of the engine apart to change the $10 part. When I called Toyota, they said they rarely have issues with PCV valves so they think it's something else. I did pull the spark plugs and they are clean, so it seems not too much oil is actually getting burned. We would like to get a couple more years out of this car, say up to 180-185K miles. Has anyone else had a similar experience with a 2ar-fe? Can we just leave it alone and get another 30K out of it? I ask because it also may have the dreaded 4WD rear electronic coupling noise, and it's past the 9 year extended warranty period. Changing the coupling myself will run about $1000, and I don't want to do it unless the motor will hold up. It might be time to just get rid of it, which is disappointing because we had hoped for an easy 200K on this thing. My recent experiences seem to indicate neither Honda nor Toyota are what they used to be...thanks in advance for any insights.
2009 RAV4 Oil Consumption
- Thread starter JMHC
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If high mileage oil didn't work, you know what it wasn't (valve seals). Every Aluminum block Toyota I've owned eventually succumbed to clogged piston oil return holes when using low flashpoint conventional oils. That can't be fixed without a teardown. If you want to try another oil, consider supertech High Mileage 10w30. That worked better than maxlife on a rear main seal problem I had recently. Its completely stopped. Those engines are tough, can run on anything. So there's no reason to stay with 5w20. 10w30 may give you a better result.
5 hours? I dont think so..
Do you know a good independent mechanic? You need to remove the passenger side wheel and remove a panel from behind it to get access to the PCV valve. I think you can do it yourself in about an hour.. not sure how you came up with 5 hours.
In terms of durability, I wouldnt be too concerned about your engine even if it is consuming that much oil. Have you checked service bulletins to see if any known issues? If it were mine, id replace the PCV valve myself and retest. If I still had consumption after PCV replaced, I would have my independent mechanic run a cylinder leakdown test. Id be confident enough to invest in a vehicle like yours with the amount of mileage it has.
Do you know a good independent mechanic? You need to remove the passenger side wheel and remove a panel from behind it to get access to the PCV valve. I think you can do it yourself in about an hour.. not sure how you came up with 5 hours.
In terms of durability, I wouldnt be too concerned about your engine even if it is consuming that much oil. Have you checked service bulletins to see if any known issues? If it were mine, id replace the PCV valve myself and retest. If I still had consumption after PCV replaced, I would have my independent mechanic run a cylinder leakdown test. Id be confident enough to invest in a vehicle like yours with the amount of mileage it has.
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Just doing a google search can give you some ideas also...
"We recently had a, hopefully, oddball case with a 2.5L 2AR-FE in a 2010 Camry that was consuming a ton of oil. Turned out that at the factory the piston ring gaps were basically all lined up, even more odd (to us at the time) was that the typical oil scrapper/oil control ring on the piston was not the traditional 3-piece design but a single piece unit."
"We recently had a, hopefully, oddball case with a 2.5L 2AR-FE in a 2010 Camry that was consuming a ton of oil. Turned out that at the factory the piston ring gaps were basically all lined up, even more odd (to us at the time) was that the typical oil scrapper/oil control ring on the piston was not the traditional 3-piece design but a single piece unit."
Originally Posted by CELICA_XX
Do you notice it leaking on the ground ?
Originally Posted by JMHC
Can we just leave it alone and get another 30K out of it?
Just keep it topped up!
Nope. Block and oil pan are dry, just heavy residue on the intake plenum.
Originally Posted by LeakySeals
If high mileage oil didn't work, you know what it wasn't (valve seals). Every Aluminum block Toyota I've owned eventually succumbed to clogged piston oil return holes when using low flashpoint conventional oils. That can't be fixed without a teardown. If you want to try another oil, consider supertech High Mileage 10w30. That worked better than maxlife on a rear main seal problem I had recently. Its completely stopped. Those engines are tough, can run on anything. So there's no reason to stay with 5w20. 10w30 may give you a better result.
The car had called for 0W-20 synthetic changed every 5K, but at that interval I just used conventional. Too late now I guess.
Originally Posted by Rolla07
5 hours? I dont think so..
Do you know a good independent mechanic? You need to remove the passenger side wheel and remove a panel from behind it to get access to the PCV valve. I think you can do it yourself in about an hour.. not sure how you came up with 5 hours.
In terms of durability, I wouldnt be too concerned about your engine even if it is consuming that much oil. Have you checked service bulletins to see if any known issues? If it were mine, id replace the PCV valve myself and retest. If I still had consumption after PCV replaced, I would have my independent mechanic run a cylinder leakdown test. Id be confident enough to invest in a vehicle like yours with the amount of mileage it has.
I tried this. They moved the PCV in 2010, so you can get to it from the wheel well. On the 2009's, there is no way to access it from that spot. Dealer quoted $600 for the PCV replacement. Here is a guy that did the job himself on a 2010 Camry..
https://www.toyotanation.com/forum/...-removal-pcv-valve-replacement-pics.html
Do you notice it leaking on the ground ?
Originally Posted by JMHC
Can we just leave it alone and get another 30K out of it?
Just keep it topped up!
Nope. Block and oil pan are dry, just heavy residue on the intake plenum.
Originally Posted by LeakySeals
If high mileage oil didn't work, you know what it wasn't (valve seals). Every Aluminum block Toyota I've owned eventually succumbed to clogged piston oil return holes when using low flashpoint conventional oils. That can't be fixed without a teardown. If you want to try another oil, consider supertech High Mileage 10w30. That worked better than maxlife on a rear main seal problem I had recently. Its completely stopped. Those engines are tough, can run on anything. So there's no reason to stay with 5w20. 10w30 may give you a better result.
The car had called for 0W-20 synthetic changed every 5K, but at that interval I just used conventional. Too late now I guess.
Originally Posted by Rolla07
5 hours? I dont think so..
Do you know a good independent mechanic? You need to remove the passenger side wheel and remove a panel from behind it to get access to the PCV valve. I think you can do it yourself in about an hour.. not sure how you came up with 5 hours.
In terms of durability, I wouldnt be too concerned about your engine even if it is consuming that much oil. Have you checked service bulletins to see if any known issues? If it were mine, id replace the PCV valve myself and retest. If I still had consumption after PCV replaced, I would have my independent mechanic run a cylinder leakdown test. Id be confident enough to invest in a vehicle like yours with the amount of mileage it has.
I tried this. They moved the PCV in 2010, so you can get to it from the wheel well. On the 2009's, there is no way to access it from that spot. Dealer quoted $600 for the PCV replacement. Here is a guy that did the job himself on a 2010 Camry..
https://www.toyotanation.com/forum/...-removal-pcv-valve-replacement-pics.html
I'd just top the oil. If the coupling noise is not loud you can trade in and get top dollar at non-Toyota dealer. My poor sister was under a month over that extended warranty on the coupling and Toyota refused to do anything. She traded in for full value at Honda dealer for a CRV.
Hopefully you picked Toyota on other qualities besides the perceived and mythical reliability. They can be very reliable but the RAV4 in 2nd and 3rd generation had some expensive problems.
Hopefully you picked Toyota on other qualities besides the perceived and mythical reliability. They can be very reliable but the RAV4 in 2nd and 3rd generation had some expensive problems.
book time is 3 hrs. I 2nd bumping it up to 10w30
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I would fix the PCV, too much oil going through the engine will eventually cause catalytic converter problems.
Oil control ringland area is known to gum/carbon up here.
I'd try the specific oil created to clean out ringlands: "Valvoline Premium Blue Restore 10w30" motor oil, that exact wording in the name, available at Cummins service centers and RyderFleet, etc. Google for that. Not super cheap stuff, but it works according to Terry Dyson, Valvoline, Cummins, and truckers who have tried it. Cheaper than a tear-down and worth a try.
I'd try the specific oil created to clean out ringlands: "Valvoline Premium Blue Restore 10w30" motor oil, that exact wording in the name, available at Cummins service centers and RyderFleet, etc. Google for that. Not super cheap stuff, but it works according to Terry Dyson, Valvoline, Cummins, and truckers who have tried it. Cheaper than a tear-down and worth a try.
You stated on your first post that you now have Maxlife 5W20 in the sump. Try going up to 5W30 with a reputable oil brand -- QSHM,Maxlife,Pennzoil High Mileage, Castrol High Mileage or even Super Tech High Mileage. Give it multiple oil changes with the high mileage & hopefully the consumption minimizes. If no change in consumption -- then I agree with bumping it up to a 10W30 High Mileage oil then.
Dale
Dale
Are you positive there are no valve cover leaks? Any burned smell immediately when shutting it off? This was the source of much oil loss in Toyota/Lexus I have seen, and the mileage you have is about where they typically start leaking in my experience. Coupled with a pcv issue, that could explain all the leakage.
I'd just keep adding oil. 2,500/quart isn't that bad. Some new cars have been known to burn more than that. By all means, look into changing oil and other minor bits, but in the end I don't think it's a big deal.
Furthermore: IMHO, a grand to fix that rear end and then getting another 30k out of it is "cheap money". If that's the only repair you do over the next 1-2 years... is that really a big cost? Compare that to a monthly payment on a new vehicle. Parse it into cost/mile or cost/year, and I bet it's well worth a few grand to keep this going for a few more years. Now, if you haven't changed the ATF, and the struts are feeling old... ok maybe it's time to trade out of it. Add up the expected repair costs between now and the future planned trade in time, and see if it's more cost advantageous to trade now versus late.
FWIW our 2AR-FE has always seen synthetic, done mostly 10k on 0W20, and no oil burning (or minimal, like 0.5qt/10k). Maybe Toyota still has problems with clogging oil drain holes, dunno. I have been using up some cheap PP 10W30 in ours, and might just stick with 5W30 going forward.
Furthermore: IMHO, a grand to fix that rear end and then getting another 30k out of it is "cheap money". If that's the only repair you do over the next 1-2 years... is that really a big cost? Compare that to a monthly payment on a new vehicle. Parse it into cost/mile or cost/year, and I bet it's well worth a few grand to keep this going for a few more years. Now, if you haven't changed the ATF, and the struts are feeling old... ok maybe it's time to trade out of it. Add up the expected repair costs between now and the future planned trade in time, and see if it's more cost advantageous to trade now versus late.
FWIW our 2AR-FE has always seen synthetic, done mostly 10k on 0W20, and no oil burning (or minimal, like 0.5qt/10k). Maybe Toyota still has problems with clogging oil drain holes, dunno. I have been using up some cheap PP 10W30 in ours, and might just stick with 5W30 going forward.
For the rear coupling I would call Toyota Corporate and see if they will cover the cost since this is a known issue. Just call the customer service number and be friendly and present your case. Stating some of the things you already mentioned like thinking it would last 200k, previous Toyota buyer (if applicable), future Toyota buyer, be friendly, etc. I've had good luck having them cover thing just outside the warranty period. They will want the dealer to diagnose it but Toyota corp may pay for that if they find that it's bad. The only way you would be on the hook for the roughly $75 diagnosis charge is if they find no problem(worth the gamble imo). Metro Toyota and Sunnyside Toyota have pretty good service departments.
I know a guy that does excellent work in Oberlin for the pcv replacement. He's a one man shop and the place is meticulous. I first came across him when he replaced an engine in a Matrix that was listed for sale. He disclosed everything and replaced a bunch of other items with oem parts to keep the car running a long time. Everything that he replaced he gave a one year warranty on. All the work is on his Facebook page for reference. If you're interested I can give you his info.
Even if you do nothing it will probably last another 30k. One of the guys on here, Leo99 has an 04 Rav with 359k. He's mentioned that the rear end has made a noise for the last 100k or so. And still keeps motoring along with very minimal repairs or maintenance other than oil changes.
Originally Posted by Leo99
To me, once the seals are starting to harden and oil starts to leak or seep, the engine is heading to its demise. HM oils allow you to get some extra miles out of your engine. My Rav4 has seeping front and rear main seals and who knows what else. Was going through almost a quart every 500 miles on ST HM blue jug but switched to green bottle Castrol HM and that seems to stay in the crankcase a lot better. But who knows what will better for you. If can get another 100k miles by switching to HM oils without too much drama, it's a win.
I know a guy that does excellent work in Oberlin for the pcv replacement. He's a one man shop and the place is meticulous. I first came across him when he replaced an engine in a Matrix that was listed for sale. He disclosed everything and replaced a bunch of other items with oem parts to keep the car running a long time. Everything that he replaced he gave a one year warranty on. All the work is on his Facebook page for reference. If you're interested I can give you his info.
Even if you do nothing it will probably last another 30k. One of the guys on here, Leo99 has an 04 Rav with 359k. He's mentioned that the rear end has made a noise for the last 100k or so. And still keeps motoring along with very minimal repairs or maintenance other than oil changes.
Originally Posted by Leo99
To me, once the seals are starting to harden and oil starts to leak or seep, the engine is heading to its demise. HM oils allow you to get some extra miles out of your engine. My Rav4 has seeping front and rear main seals and who knows what else. Was going through almost a quart every 500 miles on ST HM blue jug but switched to green bottle Castrol HM and that seems to stay in the crankcase a lot better. But who knows what will better for you. If can get another 100k miles by switching to HM oils without too much drama, it's a win.
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Thanks for all of the replies! To be thorough, I'm going to clean the oil off with some brake cleaner just to make sure it isn't leaking from the top end somewhere. I'm also going to put a camera through the throttle body into the intake to see if oil is pooling in there. If not, it's an external leak and isn't related to the PCV. A lot of you think the rings might be coked up, but when I pulled the plugs they are totally clean. I would think that would cause some residue on them, but maybe I'm wrong.
As far as the coupling, I agree, if we need to bite the bullet, getting a couple years out of it for $1000 is fine. I already changed the shocks and struts, and we just put new tires on it a few months ago. I never dropped the trans pan or filter, since it has a drain plug, but I've done a 3 quart spill and fill at 30K, 60K, 120K, and 150K so the trans should be fine. Only other thing it's gonna need is a muffler ($100 to splice one in) and maybe a battery.
I did call Sunnyside Toyota and they said it's $100 to diagnose the coupling. They also said we are 10 months past the extended 9 year warranty, and that Toyota won't help us that far out. Oh well.
As far as the coupling, I agree, if we need to bite the bullet, getting a couple years out of it for $1000 is fine. I already changed the shocks and struts, and we just put new tires on it a few months ago. I never dropped the trans pan or filter, since it has a drain plug, but I've done a 3 quart spill and fill at 30K, 60K, 120K, and 150K so the trans should be fine. Only other thing it's gonna need is a muffler ($100 to splice one in) and maybe a battery.
I did call Sunnyside Toyota and they said it's $100 to diagnose the coupling. They also said we are 10 months past the extended 9 year warranty, and that Toyota won't help us that far out. Oh well.
Originally Posted by JMHC
I did call Sunnyside Toyota and they said it's $100 to diagnose the coupling. They also said we are 10 months past the extended 9 year warranty, and that Toyota won't help us that far out. Oh well.
Even Toyota won't tell you "no" right away. They will take down all your info and open a case file. Then call/email you back with their decision. I never asked the dealer first and went straight to Toyota since they were the ones paying the bill. This was a few years ago but they said something along the lines of as a one time courtesy they will go ahead and take care of it. But nothing else will be covered going forward. If you call act like they will be taking care of it versus the other way around. Maybe mention, no way an 09 Rav4 should be having this issue so soon. The reason you bought one was for the reliability. Even if they cover 75% it may make it worthwhile to fix.
Toyota 1-800-331-4331
I did call Sunnyside Toyota and they said it's $100 to diagnose the coupling. They also said we are 10 months past the extended 9 year warranty, and that Toyota won't help us that far out. Oh well.
Even Toyota won't tell you "no" right away. They will take down all your info and open a case file. Then call/email you back with their decision. I never asked the dealer first and went straight to Toyota since they were the ones paying the bill. This was a few years ago but they said something along the lines of as a one time courtesy they will go ahead and take care of it. But nothing else will be covered going forward. If you call act like they will be taking care of it versus the other way around. Maybe mention, no way an 09 Rav4 should be having this issue so soon. The reason you bought one was for the reliability. Even if they cover 75% it may make it worthwhile to fix.
Toyota 1-800-331-4331
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The above sounds good. I dug up a post by Trav about oil consumption that should help.
Originally Posted by Trav
Originally Posted by asker123
I am also thinking high milage oil for my 2003 honda accord 4 cyl.. car burns oil...does high milage oil can help oil burning issue. car calls for 5w20 so I am debating between using 5w30 or high milage.
Just before the next oil change I would run a can of Berrymans Chemtool in the oil on a cold engine at idle for 20-30 min.
After you shut it off remove the spark plugs and pour 2-3 oz of GM top engine cleaner down each plug hole and reinstall the spark plugs loosely and leave it overnight, do not rotate the engine.
The next day disable the ignition by removing the ecm fuse and crank it over a few times with the plugs removed.
Reinstall the plugs, wire/coils and ecm fuse and change the oil and filter before starting the engine.
Once the engine starts rev it a just a little to blow the garbage out and let it idle till smooth and warmed up. Take it out and do some high rev runs. This may cure the consumption issue.
Do a short OCI of about 1K with PYB just to make sure any junk that may be left in the engine from cleaning gets removed early. You can then go back to your regular oil, I would use an xw30 in this engine non HM.
This stuff is available at any GM dealer
http://www.amazon.com/Genuine-88861...r=8-1&keywords=gm+top+engine+cleaner
The Berrymans is available at any parts store or Walmart.
http://www.amazon.com/Berryman-Chemtool-Carburetor-Treatment-Injector/dp/B000CCMNAG
Originally Posted by Trav
Originally Posted by asker123
I am also thinking high milage oil for my 2003 honda accord 4 cyl.. car burns oil...does high milage oil can help oil burning issue. car calls for 5w20 so I am debating between using 5w30 or high milage.
Just before the next oil change I would run a can of Berrymans Chemtool in the oil on a cold engine at idle for 20-30 min.
After you shut it off remove the spark plugs and pour 2-3 oz of GM top engine cleaner down each plug hole and reinstall the spark plugs loosely and leave it overnight, do not rotate the engine.
The next day disable the ignition by removing the ecm fuse and crank it over a few times with the plugs removed.
Reinstall the plugs, wire/coils and ecm fuse and change the oil and filter before starting the engine.
Once the engine starts rev it a just a little to blow the garbage out and let it idle till smooth and warmed up. Take it out and do some high rev runs. This may cure the consumption issue.
Do a short OCI of about 1K with PYB just to make sure any junk that may be left in the engine from cleaning gets removed early. You can then go back to your regular oil, I would use an xw30 in this engine non HM.
This stuff is available at any GM dealer
http://www.amazon.com/Genuine-88861...r=8-1&keywords=gm+top+engine+cleaner
The Berrymans is available at any parts store or Walmart.
http://www.amazon.com/Berryman-Chemtool-Carburetor-Treatment-Injector/dp/B000CCMNAG
try 5w30 oil. i've only got 26k miles on my camry with 2arfe. after 100k miles. i would do an oil change and run the used oil through a paper filter, and keep that leftover oil as "top off" oil. i plan on changing my oil every 5k miles and possibly adding an oil catch can soon. maybe someone spilled oil while doing an oil change? or do you do it yourself? i plan on using all my 0/5-20w oil before i move it up to 0/5-30w later as the engine gets older.
Originally Posted by Rolla07
5 hours? I dont think so..
Do you know a good independent mechanic? You need to remove the passenger side wheel and remove a panel from behind it to get access to the PCV valve. I think you can do it yourself in about an hour.. not sure how you came up with 5 hours.
In terms of durability, I wouldnt be too concerned about your engine even if it is consuming that much oil. Have you checked service bulletins to see if any known issues? If it were mine, id replace the PCV valve myself and retest. If I still had consumption after PCV replaced, I would have my independent mechanic run a cylinder leakdown test. Id be confident enough to invest in a vehicle like yours with the amount of mileage it has.
Well it turns out you were correct. I was able to change the PCV valve this past weekend through the passenger side wheel well. After removing the well liner, a connector on the trans, and a bracket, it was possible to remove it. It was tough, and it's a totally blind job, but it was a helluva lot easier that removing the intake manifold. So now we see if the consumption improves! Thanks for all of the help!
5 hours? I dont think so..
Do you know a good independent mechanic? You need to remove the passenger side wheel and remove a panel from behind it to get access to the PCV valve. I think you can do it yourself in about an hour.. not sure how you came up with 5 hours.
In terms of durability, I wouldnt be too concerned about your engine even if it is consuming that much oil. Have you checked service bulletins to see if any known issues? If it were mine, id replace the PCV valve myself and retest. If I still had consumption after PCV replaced, I would have my independent mechanic run a cylinder leakdown test. Id be confident enough to invest in a vehicle like yours with the amount of mileage it has.
Well it turns out you were correct. I was able to change the PCV valve this past weekend through the passenger side wheel well. After removing the well liner, a connector on the trans, and a bracket, it was possible to remove it. It was tough, and it's a totally blind job, but it was a helluva lot easier that removing the intake manifold. So now we see if the consumption improves! Thanks for all of the help!
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