2002 Toyota Sienna Van Repairs

[javacontour]

90K miles, time for the timing belt.

I took it in on Monday and had them change the TB, also, I had worn brake pads on one side, so something was wrong and I didn't have time to get to it, so I asked them to look at it, and to look again at the intermittent vibration.

Well $428 later, I had a new timing belt and serpentine belt(s), the RHS brake hose was replaced (I had already replaced the pads with some I had on hand) and they located the bad tire and mounted the spare on it's alloy wheel and mounted the bad tire on the steel spare wheel.

I am glad I have a good indy mechanic. It was a bit frustrating he didn't find the bad tire the first time, but it was so intermittent, that when they balanced out the tires in the Summer of 08 it would go away and then come back.

I guess the tire got bad enough for it to be obvious now.

oilBabe says the van drives 1000% better.

 

[The Critic]

When your mechanic performed the timing belt job, why didn't he also replace the water pump, rollers, tensioner and cam/crank seals?

 

[javacontour]

Pump was dry and they seldom fail on this engine, so we'll look at it again in 90K miles.

I don't think the tensioner nor rollers were replaced. Again, he said they looked good.

He's been working on my cars for the past 12 years, so if he says it's good, it's good.

He doesn't want come-backs anymore than his customers do because he survives by reputation. So he doesn't recommend the extra work unless he knows it's a vehicle that is prone to having the other failures that he could get while he's already in there.

So I trust him on this one.

 

[Virtuoso]

Hard to find a good mechanic. Always want to keep the good ones you do get.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted By: The Critic
When your mechanic performed the timing belt job, why didn't he also replace the water pump, rollers, tensioner and cam/crank seals?
Why replace it if it isn't broken?

When we do timing belts we inspect the pump for leakage and spin the pump by hand to check the bearing. If all is good it is left alone. You can have a new pump leak shortly after putting it on and an old pump last the life of the vehicle. It all depends so why touch it and throw chance into the pot that you could have messed something up?

Also why do we leave water pumps on timing chain engines until they leak versus on the belted engine?

I mean it's not like it's going to blow up over night on a TB engine and leave you with a huge disaster. It's going to start getting noisy and/or leak and give you lots of time to fix the problem.

My dad drove his old Mitsubishi 3 months (summer) with a leaking water pump because he didn't have the time to do it. He just kept feeding it water.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
When we do timing belts we inspect the pump for leakage and spin the pump by hand to check the bearing. If all is good it is left alone. You can have a new pump leak shortly after putting it on and an old pump last the life of the vehicle. It all depends so why touch it and throw chance into the pot that you could have messed something up?


Why? Because if the water pump fails, you'll have to perform the entire job over again.

Even cars with perfect maintenance records can experience a water pump failures in-between timing belt jobs. If it takes you 4.5 hours to replace the belt alone, and the pump fails 50k later, then you'll have to spend 4.5 hours again to replace the both the timing belt and water pump. So, why pay for labor twice-- just spend the extra $150 and replace the pump.

 

[StevieC]

I know why... I was figuratively speaking and the chances are so slim it's not even worth worry about. The problem is the dealers have everyone so scared that it might leak that they get you to buy parts that aren't needed. Look after your cooling system, use a cooling system lubricant and I could almost guarantee you the pump will last longer than you ever wanted and/or the life of the vehicle. You can then laugh to the bank with the savings.

It hasn't failed me or my dad on any of our previous vehicles.

(The one I listed above was abused before we got it)

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
I know why... I was figuratively speaking and the chances are so slim it's not even worth worry about. The problem is the dealers have everyone so scared that it might leak that they get you to buy parts that aren't needed. Look after your cooling system, use a cooling system lubricant and I could almost guarantee you the pump will last longer than you ever wanted and/or the life of the vehicle. You can then laugh to the bank with the savings.

It hasn't failed me or my dad on any of our previous vehicles.

(The one I listed above was abused before we got it)


By the time a car is due for a timing belt, most cooling system components are approaching the end of their lifespan.

At 90k, a new water pump, all new radiator hoses, t-stat, radiator and radiator cap would be a wise investment. On any car, a complete cooling system rebuild every 75-100k would be wise since the chances of a failure after 100k are fairly high, from my limited experience. If I had performed a complete cooling system overhaul on the Saturn before 100k, my mom may not have roasted the engine.

Also, almost all the water pumps that I have replaced had around 150k miles on them. A new pump costs around $100 for most cars and over the course of a typical ownership, this adds up to a couple hundred bucks, at most. That's peanuts for the peace-of-mind that you won't get stranded in never-never-land with a blown pump.

Lastly, water pump lubricant is not needed. A lot of water pumps have sealed bearing packs, so what good does a lubricant do?

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted By: The Critic
By the time a car is due for a timing belt, most cooling system components are approaching the end of their lifespan.


Tell that to the components in my previous vehicles with over 400K KM (240K miles) on the cooling system components.

Originally Posted By: The Critic

At 90k, a new water pump, all new radiator hoses, t-stat, radiator and radiator cap would be a wise investment. On any car, a complete cooling system rebuild every 75-100k would be wise since the chances of a failure after 100k are fairly high, from my limited experience. If I had performed a complete cooling system overhaul on the Saturn before 100k, my mom may not have roasted the engine.

Also, almost all the water pumps that I have replaced had around 150k miles on them. A new pump costs around $100 for most cars and over the course of a typical ownership, this adds up to a couple hundred bucks, at most. That's peanuts for the peace-of-mind that you won't get stranded in never-never-land with a blown pump.

Lastly, water pump lubricant is not needed. A lot of water pumps have sealed bearing packs, so what good does a lubricant do?


So I guess I'm driving on a time bomb with my Santa Fe which has almost 240K KM (150K miles) and is on its second timing belt, even though the pump isn't leaking and the bearing was good when I checked it 40K KM's ago? I guess I should buy all new hoses and a thermostat to because they are also original.

Sorry bud, not buying it... Have done way too many engines with/without belts to think otherwise. I can't fault you for being "extra" in that area but you wouldn't catch me wasting the money.


As for "Water Pump Lubricant" if you look I called it "Cooling System Lubricant" because it no longer applies to the water pump. It will however keep the seals in a cooling system from leaking and will also keep you cooling system internals spotless and prevent buildup. My coolant comes out like brand new when I change it. I have also never replaced a radiator, water pump or hoses on my vehicles. I have also replaced very few thermostats and most that have failed have "Gotten Lazy" before going and haven't just failed instantly. Even after 400K KM (240K miles) It's gotta say something ?!?

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
Tell that to the components in my previous vehicles with over 400K KM (240K miles) on the cooling system components.

Maybe you were just lucky. I have never serviced a car with over 150k that still had all of the original cooling system components.

Originally Posted By: StevieC

So I guess I'm driving on a time bomb with my Santa Fe which has almost 240K KM (150K miles) and is on its second timing belt, even though the pump isn't leaking and the bearing was good when I checked it 40K KM's ago? I guess I should buy all new hoses and a thermostat to because they are also original.

Sorry bud, not buying it... Have done way too many engines with/without belts to think otherwise. I can't fault you for being "extra" in that area but you wouldn't catch me wasting the money.


As for "Water Pump Lubricant" if you look I called it "Cooling System Lubricant" because it no longer applies to the water pump. It will however keep the seals in a cooling system from leaking and will also keep you cooling system internals spotless and prevent buildup. My coolant comes out like brand new when I change it.


Hey, just because it has worked for you doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. A lot of people give their cars annual oil changes with conventional oil, but does that mean it's the right thing to do? No! Here on BITOG, as enthusiasts, I'd expect everyone to be encouraging best practices when it comes to automotive maintenance. Unfortunately, at least in my opinion, waiting until cooling system components fail to replace them is just inviting disaster.

 

[StevieC]

I hear you... However it isn't just working for me, it works for the whole family, friends, neighbors and customers of my dads over years and years and hundreds of thousands of miles. I wish I had some way to prove it to you rather than just posing on the internet but I don't.

I will say that your method is a fail safe approach, but I was just trying to dispel the myth that it absolutely has to be done or disaster will ensue.

I would settle for every 180K miles to do the pump while doing the belt as this makes the cost worth it IMO, however every 90K is far too often IMO. This would leave a safety buffer. I guess I'm just cheap.

 

[benjamming]

Originally Posted By: The Critic
Here on BITOG, as enthusiasts, I'd expect everyone to be encouraging best practices when it comes to automotive maintenance. Unfortunately, at least in my opinion, waiting until cooling system components fail to replace them is just inviting disaster.


Best practice is what provides me the lowest total lifecycle cost of ownership. I didn't replace any hoses, thermostat, or water pump on my '94 Grand Am until at least 150-175k miles. I replaced the water pump when it failed. Failed means leaking coolant, not locked up. Why would I replace the water pump on this car before then? You also fail to consider that many aftermarket & even OEM replacement parts are not close in durability to what the vehicle rolled off the line with. Heck, why wait until 90k miles. Let's do it every 30-60k miles for that piece of mind.

I agree with java, that if the water pump fails (leaking coolant) at say 150k miles, then replace the belt then & go back to the every 90k miles from that point. You would have gotten 60k more miles out of it & only 30k miles from the next TB replacement anyway. Yes, I do understand that some WP suddenly lock up but I think locking up is less common. A good BITOGer should be inspecting for leaks & coolant loss quite often anyway. That is preventative maintance, IMHO of course.

 

[javacontour]

I think it depends on the car.

I've replaced so many GM water pumps that I'd probably do this on a GM.

On the Toyota, he called the Toyota dealer because he usually recommends doing the pumps on a Honda. The dealer said this pump has a very low failure rate, so he recommended against changing it, but would if I asked.

Given that my Geo Prizm, (Toyota 4A-FE) is on it's factory water pump after 243K miles, I think they are calling for a very long life pump.

Actually pro-actively replacing is NOT a fail-safe approach. You can get a defective pump, damage could occur, etc.

So, given that I work on stuff for a living, I'm getting more towards the don't mess with it unless it's trouble.

Obviously, since the engine is arguably an interference engine, I had the TB replaced. But if the pump is dry, not making strange noises, etc, and Toyota says it's a rare failure item, I'm going to leave it alone for now.

 

[javacontour]

Originally Posted By: Virtuoso
Hard to find a good mechanic. Always want to keep the good ones you do get.


I pass several shops to get to his. I moved 20 minutes away, but still go back to him.

 

[chad8]

By the time a car is due for a timing belt, most cooling system components are approaching the end of their lifespan.

At 90k, a new water pump, all new radiator hoses, t-stat, radiator and radiator cap would be a wise investment. On any car, a complete cooling system rebuild every 75-100k would be wise since the chances of a failure after 100k are fairly high, from my limited experience. If I had performed a complete cooling system overhaul on the Saturn before 100k, my mom may not have roasted the engine.

Also, almost all the water pumps that I have replaced had around 150k miles on them. A new pump costs around $100 for most cars and over the course of a typical ownership, this adds up to a couple hundred bucks, at most. That's peanuts for the peace-of-mind that you won't get stranded in never-never-land with a blown pump.

Lastly, water pump lubricant is not needed. A lot of water pumps have sealed bearing packs, so what good does a lubricant do?
[/quote]
I guess you should drive toyota's . I have had 2 previas and 2 sienna vans.A 91, 93, 98, and a 2000. Both had o.e.m. factory timing belts from the original owners (in-laws) at 60000 then I ignored them till 130000+. Never had a problem with pumps bearings etc.
Look at this 3.0 motor . It is generally regarded as the second or third most most reliable motor in the history of automobile manufacturing right behind the 1.6 corolla/prizm engine. I called toyota service also regarding the water pump and tensioner. They advise that if it is not leaking , LEAVE IT ALONE. With the newer manufacturing techniques , toyota belts are generally good for 90000 miles if you live a bit dangerously. The sienna o.e.m. water pumps are normally good for the life of the motor which is 250-300000. That came from 2 service advisers and Toyota master tech friend of mine. The corolla pump is a bit easier to change and good for about 200000.
So drive that old Chevy with a clutch fan still attached to the water pump and see how long it lasts compared to a remote fan and serpentine belt setup. May be you should change yours every month !

 

[KrisZ]

I have never seen a car with 90K that would be in need for a total cooling system overhaul. Unless the car sat for a very long time and the rubber parts simply rotted away, I don't see how coolant hoses can deterirate on a daily driven car by 90k miles.

Like others said, water pumps and radiator hoses can be easily inspected for problems and I think should be replaced then.

It must be the young generation mind set to just throw parts at the problem or replace stuff at some arbirtrary intervall for "piece of mind". I think he cheap stuff from China is a major factor for this mind set, but people are forgetting that most of the time you are throwing away a perfectly good OEM part that, in most cases, is far superior to the aftermarket one.

I am not that old (didn't hit 30 yet), but I was always thought to buy things as needed, not because they are cheap. And I think a lot of thing in cars can be picked up by simple routine inspection and can last a long time.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
I have never seen a car with 90K that would be in need for a total cooling system overhaul. Unless the car sat for a very long time and the rubber parts simply rotted away, I don't see how coolant hoses can deterirate on a daily driven car by 90k miles.


Perhaps you should read up on the cooling system woes of BMWs, in particular the newer E46 models. A complete cooling system overhaul every 75k or so is highly recommended by most people for those cars.

Hey, I'm not saying that everyone needs to overhaul their cooling system, but its just from my limited experience that most cars need a good portion of their cooling system replaced before 150k. Granted, all of these cars were around 10 years old. So based on my experience, it just makes more sense to replace everything at around 100k so that you won't have to replace a piece of the cooling system at a time.

 

[fdcg27]

Backing down a bit?
Both of my '86 Civics went to the junkyard, well after 200K, with original rad and heater hoses, as well as original radiators and pressure caps.
I did replace the water pumps at T-belt time, although they remained dry and smooth in rotation, simply because they were $30.00 parts, and so hard to get to.
Maybe the cooling system on a Saturn dies around 90K.
Some BMWs might have similar problems.
Those of most Japanese brands don't.

 

[cousincletus]

Most domestics have timing belts to begin with. Better design IMO. People badmouth GM, but I've never had a cooling system issue with one.

 

[Quest]

I'm with The Critic RE: water pump replacement (I'm with you bud!)

The cost and frustrations of a RE&RE if you choose not to replace your water pump first time around during T-belt servicing is high, and if you happen to have one of those T-belt arrangement that also runs the water pump and it just ever so happen that your water pump failed in a very dramatic manner on an interference engine then you are looking at a replacement block + labour cost to put it in, period.

You folks who claimed your water pump has outlasted the car are, statistically being lucky. If you are in the biz of mechanics and you have a reputation to keep and you don't want the extra hassle of a dispute because you choose not to replace the water pump during T-belt servicing (and state it clearly in your work order so that the liability is not on you) and also tarnish your repulation, then replace the water pump with a new one (with all the idler bearings involved).


You can choose to do whatever you want to, afterall: it's your car, your liability and your mullah.

Q.


Remember this: "opinion is like an arshhole: everybody has one and it's stinks".