20% renewable in 15 years: $1 Trillion

[Tempest]

Man made climate change is a complete scam. It's a way to reduce private property rights and make people a lot of money in "green" technology (subsidized by government) and carbon offset trading. Not to mention the taxes Gov. gets out of it.

Quote:
The United States will be home to a $1 trillion carbon emission market by 2020 if federal and state policymakers continue on their current path towards a comprehensive "cap-and-trade" program that is confined to domestic trading only.

http://www.eurekalert.org/multimedia/pub/web/6867_web.jpg
Something else to sell just like stocks and real estate but this is a pure vapor product invented by Gov. Lots of money to be made in commissions and those companies authorized to deal with them.

 

[Gary Allan]

Oh ..so it's like the "Pet Rock" fad? I see.

 

[Shannow]

IndyIan,
that's a huge question.

If we mess up that test tube experiment, there isn't much optionm to jump ship.

 

[oilyriser]

Coal gets a free ride, by violating private property owners downwind with mercury emissions.

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Man made climate change is a complete scam. It's a way to reduce private property rights and make people a lot of money in "green" technology (subsidized by government) and carbon offset trading. Not to mention the taxes Gov. gets out of it.

Quote:
The United States will be home to a $1 trillion carbon emission market by 2020 if federal and state policymakers continue on their current path towards a comprehensive "cap-and-trade" program that is confined to domestic trading only.

http://www.eurekalert.org/multimedia/pub/web/6867_web.jpg
Something else to sell just like stocks and real estate but this is a pure vapor product invented by Gov. Lots of money to be made in commissions and those companies authorized to deal with them.


Well, I can see why you might think its a scam, the fossil fuel industry has used "scientific" misinformation very well.
I happened to be listening to this radio show last night on the way home from hockey. Climate change was one issue they discussed. CBC podcast on environmental spin

I look at things like unprecedented reductions in the polar ice caps, record warm temperatures in the arctic, warming oceans killing coral, the spread of the mountain pine beetle and wonder if all these coincidences aren't signs of trouble to come.
Do you have home insurance? I do, odds are in my area I'll never need it but I pay the yearly fee, just in case.
At the very least, you could see reducing greenhouse gases, as home insurance. Yes, the insurance company makes some money, and yes, the government creates rules and regulations and fees to make sure my house isn't a death trap. I'm Ok with that.

Plus, green energy decentralizes control of energy production, anyone can put solar panels on their roof or if you have a few acres, put up a wind turbine. In Ontario we have pumped billions into our nuclear plants, and they still aren't cost effective, if you place no costs on carbon emmisions. Even if green energy is as expensive as nuclear, atleast we don't have any waste to deal with or potential accidents or uranium mining.

I guess I see implementing green energy is like controlling emmisions on cars, everyone whined and moaned about how expensive it would be, blah blah blah... Now cars are cleaner, produce more hp/L, use less gas, and are far cheaper in relative costs.
Ian

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan


Not with 6 billion people it hasn't. I think we were @ 2B 100 years into oil.

Well, people will stop reproducing and die off. It's that obvious, like all life form.

Quote:
Estimated at 2000X the current number (nuke) to produce the same energy. There's not enough uranium.


Nobody says we will produce 2000x the current amount so people can use the same amount, people uses a fraction of what they used to in the past, by either be more efficient or just live more frugally, or die off.

Quote:
Try doing that in the Philly metro area of 4M+ NYC metro of 20M+ There's not enough "local" to grow that much food.


People will move back to farm when food is insufficient, like the way downtown of old city die off and people move to new area.

Quote:
Assuming resources are locally available to produce locally needed items, sure.


New manufacturing sites will come up close to energy and material source, like it has always been in the civilization in the past. That's how the German started its industrial base in the past (coal and iron mines near by), and Vietnam started its ceramic industry (clay).


Quote:
I'll take two. Can you have them up and running in the next decade? I need mine in Phoenix and Las Vegas.


No need to move the dam. These cities will die off like they have been in the last several thousand years. New cities will boom near the former farmland to take advantage of the food, energy crop, and/or water.

Quote:

Quote:
We will find ways around it.


Groucho??


Nope, human have been through so many natural and man made disasters and not having energy will just slow us down for a few decades or 100 years the most. Eventually we will solve the problems one way or the other. Some nations or people may not survive, but human as a whole will.

 

[VNTS]

We cant even build a 34 KV circuit on existing right of way to improve reliability and service new load growth for a couple towns, note exisiting infrastructure is over 40 years old, we want to spend our own money and do the construction. Yet local officials, PUC, Office of Public advocate fight us?? I say open some reclosers and have a few outages and maybe these J$Ck A$$es will smarten up. Of course all the legal [censored] adds millions and every other rate payer picks up the tab. This isnt even anything major like a 115 or 345 KV. People in this country need to smarten up and not allow this to happen. A few people and some quasi goverment hacks drag stuff out and drive up the cost

 

[Gary Allan]

Pandabear

Sure, under those qualifications ..humans will (perhaps) adapt and survive. The notion that fully needs to be communicated is that there will be a massive devolution of social systems (aka-civilizations/societies) in the transition. We've been conditioned, for many generations, to assume an advancing curve of human existence. This notion has shown to be stressed in increasing levels over the past 30 years.

I also don't think that it will "naturally" occur. It will violently occur. I don't know if the globe can handle another world war at our current level of destructive capability and continue to sustain life.

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: VNTS
We cant even build a 34 KV circuit on existing right of way to improve reliability and service new load growth for a couple towns, note exisiting infrastructure is over 40 years old, we want to spend our own money and do the construction. Yet local officials, PUC, Office of Public advocate fight us?? I say open some reclosers and have a few outages and maybe these J$Ck A$$es will smarten up. Of course all the legal [censored] adds millions and every other rate payer picks up the tab. This isnt even anything major like a 115 or 345 KV. People in this country need to smarten up and not allow this to happen. A few people and some quasi goverment hacks drag stuff out and drive up the cost

Yeah ..we've complicated everything. I think that they built the PA Turnpike in a few years from one end of the state to the other with simple machines and manual labor for a fraction of the cost of the time and environmental impact study in today's world. I doubt that there's enough heavy equipment to do the job in the same time frame ..even without those restraints.

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
Well, I can see why you might think its a scam, the fossil fuel industry has used "scientific" misinformation very well.

There is absolutely ZERO evidence of man made GW. They even admit that they can't guarantee the validity of their own information. Substituting one month's information for another, record polar ice cap GROWTH this year (NO computer models predicted this), global cooling since 1998, the IPCC continually revising down their "predictions", the myth of the hockey stick.... the list goes on and on. They can't even get the weather right in a week yet computer models are the basis for global warming decades in the future...

Quote:
I look at things like unprecedented reductions in the polar ice caps, record warm temperatures in the arctic, warming oceans killing coral, the spread of the mountain pine beetle and wonder if all these coincidences aren't signs of trouble to come.

Don't forget hurracanies...those are our fault, too.

And none of those things ever happened in the history of the planet before man started to use fossil fuels....

 

[Gary Allan]

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
Arthur Schopenhauer
German philosopher (1788 - 1860)

 

[moribundman]

Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan


Not with 6 billion people it hasn't. I think we were @ 2B 100 years into oil.

Well, people will stop reproducing and die off. It's that obvious, like all life form.

Quote:
Estimated at 2000X the current number (nuke) to produce the same energy. There's not enough uranium.


Nobody says we will produce 2000x the current amount so people can use the same amount, people uses a fraction of what they used to in the past, by either be more efficient or just live more frugally, or die off.

Quote:
Try doing that in the Philly metro area of 4M+ NYC metro of 20M+ There's not enough "local" to grow that much food.


People will move back to farm when food is insufficient, like the way downtown of old city die off and people move to new area.

Quote:
Assuming resources are locally available to produce locally needed items, sure.


New manufacturing sites will come up close to energy and material source, like it has always been in the civilization in the past. That's how the German started its industrial base in the past (coal and iron mines near by), and Vietnam started its ceramic industry (clay).


Quote:
I'll take two. Can you have them up and running in the next decade? I need mine in Phoenix and Las Vegas.


No need to move the dam. These cities will die off like they have been in the last several thousand years. New cities will boom near the former farmland to take advantage of the food, energy crop, and/or water.

Quote:

Quote:
We will find ways around it.


Groucho??


Nope, human have been through so many natural and man made disasters and not having energy will just slow us down for a few decades or 100 years the most. Eventually we will solve the problems one way or the other. Some nations or people may not survive, but human as a whole will.


Jar Jar Binks, I'd like to reply but I'm too tired.

 

[moribundman]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Don't forget hurracanies...


Come again?

 

[moribundman]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
There is absolutely ZERO evidence of man made GW. They even admit that they can't guarantee the validity of their own information.


Why would your beliefs be superior to those of others?

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Quote:
Well, I can see why you might think its a scam, the fossil fuel industry has used "scientific" misinformation very well.

There is absolutely ZERO evidence of man made GW. They even admit that they can't guarantee the validity of their own information. Substituting one month's information for another, record polar ice cap GROWTH this year (NO computer models predicted this), global cooling since 1998, the IPCC continually revising down their "predictions", the myth of the hockey stick.... the list goes on and on. They can't even get the weather right in a week yet computer models are the basis for global warming decades in the future...

Quote:
I look at things like unprecedented reductions in the polar ice caps, record warm temperatures in the arctic, warming oceans killing coral, the spread of the mountain pine beetle and wonder if all these coincidences aren't signs of trouble to come.

Don't forget hurracanies...those are our fault, too.

And none of those things ever happened in the history of the planet before man started to use fossil fuels....


Did you listen to the podcast I linked? You have just parroted many of the arguments put forward by "scientists" paid to say those things... The tobacco industry has done this before, dragging out the debate on the effects of smoking for years.

Here are the facts as I see them,
No one knows for sure what the climate will be like in 100 years.
The vast majority of climatology scientists agree that the man made increasing greenhouse gas emmisions will warm the global climate or at least make it more extreme. Most of these scientists are not getting paid by the renewable energy lobby to say this. Some are I'm sure but most are not.
The climate is measurably warmer now than 50 years ago.

So, if you look at future of the planet on a global scale, what is the best course of action?
Carry on as we are, with exponential CO2 emmisions growth and hope that the majority of our experts are wrong, willing to burden future generations with huge environmental costs if we guessed wrong, for very short term material gains...
Or,
Be more cautious, in case the majority of climate experts are right and we are effecting the climate. Build infrastructure and technology that emits less CO2 and other pollutants at a short term material cost. Most of these projects should have side benefits in a cleaner environment and healthier people.

I guess I'd rather be safe than sorry. Especially on a global scale...
Ian