20/50 Oil in an Evo? Partially Explained

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Originally Posted By: CBRE
I've learned my lesson, only Brad Penn 20w50 or Amsoil Dominator 15w50, been through countless oil pumps and motors trying to get away with thin oils looking for every last HP.


Does anyone go to a dry sump system on the 4G63s (especially hyper-powered, 'built' ones)???

It would seem that as prohibitively $$$$$$ as they may be, it could still be less than constantly changing stock oil pumps?
21.gif
 
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: CBRE
I've learned my lesson, only Brad Penn 20w50 or Amsoil Dominator 15w50, been through countless oil pumps and motors trying to get away with thin oils looking for every last HP.


Does anyone go to a dry sump system on the 4G63s (especially hyper-powered, 'built' ones)???

It would seem that as prohibitively $$$$$$ as they may be, it could still be less than constantly changing stock oil pumps?
21.gif

Sounds like you already get it, but NO "tuner" really has a clue about how race cars are built/run. Which is how you end up with threads like this in the Racing section.
wink.gif
 
Originally Posted By: mkIIIman089
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: CBRE
I've learned my lesson, only Brad Penn 20w50 or Amsoil Dominator 15w50, been through countless oil pumps and motors trying to get away with thin oils looking for every last HP.


Does anyone go to a dry sump system on the 4G63s (especially hyper-powered, 'built' ones)???

It would seem that as prohibitively $$$$$$ as they may be, it could still be less than constantly changing stock oil pumps?
21.gif

Sounds like you already get it, but NO "tuner" really has a clue about how race cars are built/run. Which is how you end up with threads like this in the Racing section.
wink.gif



To Give my Friend/Tuner some credit, he is the West Coast Redline Time Attack Champion. So he is not "just" a tuner.

As for a dry sump? I am sure they are available, anything made for the Rally Car was available for the Street car, so if WRC, or Group N had a dry sump, then there should be a dry sump available. I do know that Cosworth makes an Oil scraper for the bottom of the crank. Maybe I will consider having that installed when I get my 60K service done (im at 46K now).

Jeff
 
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Road course a lot? Turn BIG revs all the time? Then you need that scraper.

Same with the dry sump. Simply nuts for a daily driven streeter with occasional track visits.

I'm in Undummy's camp, there's a hidden issue that is causing this. Then again, how many cars total are we talking about? The Internet can sometimes "amplify" a problem from small and relatively unknown to gigantic and horrible!
 
I read the page you linked to at Magnus Motorsports, and they talk about all the issues relating to oil control at high speed and boost pressures that we have been talking around. They seem to have an engineered system to deal with the issues. They don't say what oil grade to use. Do you know what they recommend? If the dry-sump system gives them the oil control they claim, then I doubt they would be advocating Xw50.

The $5000 dry-sump system I don't think is something you need for your car. It sounds as though this system is designed for 10,000+ rpm and 40+ psi boost pressures. They do make it clear that the stock 4g63 oil pump shouldn't be run over 8000 rpm, and that the cylnder head doesn't have enough oil drains. To me the basic problem sounds like oil starvation due to poor drainage from the top of the engine. If the pump runs dry at high speed, it will seize.

The tuners' solution of running Xw50 oil buys a second or two more of safe operation after the oil pickup sucks air before the thicker oil film burns away, leading to metal-metal contact between the gear bushing and shaft.

So what can you do with your mildly modified engine for reasonable cost to protect the oil pump? Some brainstorm ideas:
1. Add an auxiliary oil drain hose from the head back to the sump.
2. Add volume to the oil pan via deeper sump or wings.
3. Add an Accusump to the oil system.
4. Use a vacuum pump to keep crankcase pressure down and improve cylinder head drainage.
5. Decrease the oil pressure setting at the pump regulator valve so oil doesn't get pumped from the pan as quickly.
6. Put some low-friction, self-lubricating coating on the oil pump gear bushings to make them more tolerant of running dry.
7. Use Xw50 oil.

Sad to say, but the Xw50 oil option is the only one that comes at no additional charge, given that you do have to put oil in the engine.
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Road course a lot? Turn BIG revs all the time? Then you need that scraper.

Same with the dry sump. Simply nuts for a daily driven streeter with occasional track visits.

I'm in Undummy's camp, there's a hidden issue that is causing this. Then again, how many cars total are we talking about? The Internet can sometimes "amplify" a problem from small and relatively unknown to gigantic and horrible!


I agree with you guys totally. No I dont turn High RPM's all the time, and No I do not take my car on some high speed curcuit. Its my Daily Driver and see Auto X course once in a while alone with a Streets of Willows Run once in a blue moon. With the economy the way it is, I just can't afford to do anything but regular maintenance right now.

I think 1 person had a failure and its getting blown WAY out of proportion IMO.


Jeff
 
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
I read the page you linked to at Magnus Motorsports, and they talk about all the issues relating to oil control at high speed and boost pressures that we have been talking around. They seem to have an engineered system to deal with the issues. They don't say what oil grade to use. Do you know what they recommend? If the dry-sump system gives them the oil control they claim, then I doubt they would be advocating Xw50.

The $5000 dry-sump system I don't think is something you need for your car. It sounds as though this system is designed for 10,000+ rpm and 40+ psi boost pressures. They do make it clear that the stock 4g63 oil pump shouldn't be run over 8000 rpm, and that the cylnder head doesn't have enough oil drains. To me the basic problem sounds like oil starvation due to poor drainage from the top of the engine. If the pump runs dry at high speed, it will seize.

The tuners' solution of running Xw50 oil buys a second or two more of safe operation after the oil pickup sucks air before the thicker oil film burns away, leading to metal-metal contact between the gear bushing and shaft.

So what can you do with your mildly modified engine for reasonable cost to protect the oil pump? Some brainstorm ideas:
1. Add an auxiliary oil drain hose from the head back to the sump.
2. Add volume to the oil pan via deeper sump or wings.
3. Add an Accusump to the oil system.
4. Use a vacuum pump to keep crankcase pressure down and improve cylinder head drainage.
5. Decrease the oil pressure setting at the pump regulator valve so oil doesn't get pumped from the pan as quickly.
6. Put some low-friction, self-lubricating coating on the oil pump gear bushings to make them more tolerant of running dry.
7. Use Xw50 oil.

Sad to say, but the Xw50 oil option is the only one that comes at no additional charge, given that you do have to put oil in the engine.


My Engines RPM Limiter is set to 7950 so I will never see over 8K RPMS, and it is true many race Evo's do rev past 10K RPM. My Friends is one. My boost pressure is no where near 40psi mine is maxed out at 26-27 psi @WOT due to the pump gas that I use. My Friends does run 35-38 psi @WOT on race fuel.

So it seems that my friend maybe just telling me and his customesrs as a "fail safe" to use the thicker oil because he is not sure how everyone drives and is taking the side of caution?

I don't beat my car, or race it. I just do very basic stuff, and my car has very basic mods. I think the RL 5/30 that I am using should be sufficiant for my needs and for occasional AutoX and Small track use (streets of willows etc.).

I thank everyone for your input and the ideas. It has been very helpful. The question is: 20/50 in MY car worth it? I mean I can buy VR1 Synthetic anywhere here in town and I have to order the RL 5/30. So if the 20/50 VR1 would do nothing but maybe cost a few ponies and a MPG or 2 for that added safety margin (when needed) then maybe it is worth it then? Is that the collective agreement on this?

Jeff
 
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
As for a dry sump? I am sure they are available, anything made for the Rally Car was available for the Street car, so if WRC, or Group N had a dry sump, then there should be a dry sump available.


I cannot even fathom what a RalliArt dry sump system would cost!!!!!
crazy2.gif
shocked.gif
 
I think you blew what one guy said WAY out of proportion. He's just one guy (albeit an experienced guy) that saw an oil pump failure. So far he is not doing much to prove it was caused by the 10w30.

But again, we are talking about an older motor that is being pushed way beyond its original design limits. And that motor was already cranking out a LOT of power.

I am glad to see people understand the concept of proper engine tuning though.
 
dparm said:
I think you blew what one guy said WAY out of proportion. He's just one guy (albeit an experienced guy) that saw an oil pump failure. So far he is not doing much to prove it was caused by the 10w30.

But again, we are talking about an older motor that is being pushed way beyond its original design limits. And that motor was already cranking out a LOT of power.

I am glad to see people understand the concept of proper engine tuning though. [/quote
Click to expand...
dparm said:
I am not sure what the actually OEM limits are for this motor. Mind you this whole car was only made so Mitsubishi could race in Group N and WRC, so if the car wasn't sold a certain way, then the race car couldn't have it either. Hence the reason for the wing, vortex generators, etc on the street car.

I know they over engineer the car for duribility reasons, so I also know the US Version is "de tuned" from the day you get it because the car was designed for 93 octane fuel of which not many states still have. Most have 91. OEM cars on 93 pump on the dyno averaged almost 20whp more than the cars on 91.

In my car It dynoed at 250whp on a dynojet, so I am guessing that would be about 225 on a Mustdang dyno. My car makes 320whp on a mustang dyno now, so Im about 100whp over stock. I don't think that is exceeding the limits of the engine at all. Especially since its been this way for 4 yrs with no issues at all (knock on wood).

Most 4G63's that make big power here in the USA have completely built motors, and these are the motors that I can see the need for the 20/50. My car? Needing a 20/50 though? I mean I would do it, I just am wondering if it is just overkill since I am not bouncing off the rev limiter all day long? I have the RL 5/30 in now, and summer is coming up where temps will be around 120F. I think the RL should be up to the task, actually I think my kind of temps are where this oil shines. Question is do I ditch it for a 20/50 or M1 15/50 or keep it in and keep an eye on oil temps for the summer? Or swith to RL 10/40? I just want whats best for the car. I don't care which brand I use, as long as it is helping the car. If I do go the 50w route, I would most likely use VR1 synthetic street.

I am just really confused on what would be best and who to believe.

This bites. haha
Click to expand...
 
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I`d go for RP in a 40 or 50 weight. If I was racing regularly I`d use XPR,in a DD,just the street oils. It`s a true synth. Not sure if the VR1 is,and it`s as expensive as the XPR (the synthetic racing VR1).
 
Mitsubishi's lubrication engineers aren't stupid. They know people will drive the [censored] out of the car, and they made a recommendation that should give more than adequate protection. Until you're making ridiculously more power than stock, I really wouldn't lose sleep over this.

If you are truly nervous, maybe step up to an Xw40 or go for a very shear-stable Xw30 like Motul 300V, Redline, or Renewable Lube. Those should handle the extra stresses without sweating it. In fact, Motul 300V 10w40 is an outstanding oil. Try it for an OCI and I bet you'll be satisfied.

No doubt you've seen my UOAs of 300V on my S4 that gets to the track and autocross regularly.
 
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
This Evo was in my friends shop getting worked on and it made over 900whp on the AWD Dynojet. THIS car I can see using 20/50 haha

Drag Evo

http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd502/jeffs2006evoix/evodragcar9.jpg[/IMG]]900+ WHP EVO Drag Car


Is that a 101mm hairdryer, on a 2.4 stroker??!! (and a cryo/nitrous cooled intercooler?)
crazy2.gif



Im not sure of the exact specs of this particular Evo. I was in the shop while it was there, and I asked allot of questions, but it was about a couple of years ago.

I do know that turbo, the inlet right there in the picture was as big as my hand open. That is a chilled intercooler but no N02, it had a 3000GT rear end, and the fuel cell in the trunk was also chilled. Last I knew this Evo ran a 1/4 mile in the low 8's. Im not sure of the fuel used, but nothing was injected in the cylinders other than Race gas, no NO2 no Methanol or water injection.

It made 1000whp when it left the shop. Just crazy right there I tell you what (stole that from King of the Hill haha)

Jeff
 
Originally Posted By: dparm
Mitsubishi's lubrication engineers aren't stupid. They know people will drive the [censored] out of the car, and they made a recommendation that should give more than adequate protection. Until you're making ridiculously more power than stock, I really wouldn't lose sleep over this.

If you are truly nervous, maybe step up to an Xw40 or go for a very shear-stable Xw30 like Motul 300V, Redline, or Renewable Lube. Those should handle the extra stresses without sweating it. In fact, Motul 300V 10w40 is an outstanding oil. Try it for an OCI and I bet you'll be satisfied.

No doubt you've seen my UOAs of 300V on my S4 that gets to the track and autocross regularly.


I agree as well that Mits engineers are not stupid. Quite the opposite. These guys were avid racers in the WRC for well over 20 yrs, and the 4G63 has been in these race cars for over 20yrs.

What is happening, is the oil pressure drops once the engine revs past 8000rpm. I do believe that mits did not design this car to rev to 10,000rpm and I feel that is where the failures are happening. Seems the oil pumps that are failing are in Drag Evo's reving to 10,000+ RPM making over 35lbs of boost.

Its hard to peice together actual facts of this happening since they are so scarce and are theory based. The 4G63 is pretty stout, but every engine has its limits. That is for sure.

I run Redline 5/30 In my car by the way.

Jeff
 
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Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
I`d go for RP in a 40 or 50 weight. If I was racing regularly I`d use XPR,in a DD,just the street oils. It`s a true synth. Not sure if the VR1 is,and it`s as expensive as the XPR (the synthetic racing VR1).


I did run RP XPR in my car, the Racing 41 while I was trying out WMI on my car. All I can say in the year that I was running RP is that oil made my valve train sound like a marble was loose in my valve cover. Just drove me nuts!! When the WMI came out of the car, so did the RP XPR.

I was considering running 10/40 street RP, but I feel the Redline 5/30 I am using now is more than adequate in comparo to the RP 10/40. I also didn't really care for all the secretcy from RP. I would call up and ask about the HTHS of an oil and they gave me the "Well it falls within the specs for that particular weight" never a clear answer, I didn't like that. I go to redline, they tell me EXACTLY what I want to know. Of course they won't tell you blending secrets, no company will, but not give out the Exact HTHS of a particular oil they sell? That is goofy to me. So they lost my business. That and the fear that my valve train will sound horrible as it did before.

I also don't get this with RP. When I asked them if this was caused by "Moly Plating" they wouldn't answer, but yet, all they say is "its our synerlec additive" mmmmmmm yeah, Im not sure about this.

Out of RP Handbook:
http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd502/jeffs2006evoix/RP.jpg[/IMG]]RP

Im not trying to bash this company, like I said I used the oil for over a year and paid over $13 per qt for the dang oil too! But Im just not buying it.

Anyway, so far I have not been swayed from the RL. Its reasonalbly priced, should suit the turbo needs fine, take the heat of the desert where I live. Draw back? I have to order it and pay shipping fees that jacks the overall price up.

The car thus far seems to like the Redline. So I will keep it in, at least for now. Ordering oil may get old to me one day.

Jeff
 
Also, in the RP Pic there i put up. They say Highest Film strenght, but their HTHS numbers are in the range of any other oil on the market in the weight tested. So what gives there? Just curious on that. Super duper film strenght but same or low HTHS scores? Logic tells me stronger film strength would mean a higher HTHS? Am I wrong in assuming that? mmmmmm

Jeff
 
My opinion of RP is that it's a pretty normal synthetic oil, but has a special additive package that reduces wear. Redline is a cut above because of its POE base stock and exceptionally high HTHS for a given KV.
 
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