20/50 Oil in an Evo? Partially Explained

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Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Yes. Diesel engines rarely get above 1250F on turbine inlet temperature. If they get to 1400F, the turbo becomes susceptible to bearing problems. Gasoline engines get to 1700F turbine inlet very easily, and can easily top 1800F if the mixture isn't tuned excessiveley rich.


Thanks, I didn't know they ran that hot. I guess diesel combustion temperatures must be higher for a given EGT due to the extra compression.

I'm pretty sure my buddy goes over 1400F with his 5.9 Cummins' on a regular basis, but he has also taken out a factory turbo on one - bearings simply got noisy at around 100k miles - and even once melted the pistons to the cylinder walls on another when he got carried away with the programmer on a stock turbo without his gauges hooked up.

This is an interesting thread. I apologize for derailing it a bit!
 
I might be mistaken, but oil operating temperatures at failures where not discussed?

On my 2.4 neon with an SRT4 oil system, there is an oil cooler that uses the coolant to control oil temp, without any thermostat to control oil temp, which I guess is pretty usual.

There are different coolant thermostats ''fully open'' temprerature: stock is 195 F, but 180 F and 160 F are available.

This has an effect on the KV at operating temps.

I don't know if the 4G63 has an oil cooler from the factory, but combing 20w-50 with a 160 F thermostat can yield pretty thick oil at operating temp. Even 10w-30 can have a harder time draining form the head back to the sump at high RPM, around 20 cSt.

And this is all assuming that failure at WOT and high RPM happenened with the engine fully warmed-up, and most important to us in this discussion, oil at operating temp. I highly doubt that oil reaches operating temp in the pit lane at the drag strip before a run...

Not trying to solve anything, but just pointing out that there might be someother data to take into account.
 
Thanks guys for keeping the post going, its very helpful. I do not have a OP Guage in my car, I do have an Oil Temp Guage and I have never seen oil temps above 105C. Mind you the sensor for the guage is in the oil pan, its actually part of the oil drain plug.

I would like an OP guage, but honestly, any decent ones for my car run several hundred dollars plus install. I could do it myself, but not sure if I would want to tackle it. I will think on it. Its not that a couple of hundred dollars is allot, but money is extremely tight for me lately.

The Evo does have a decent sized OEM Oil Cooler. I am not sure about the water temp stuff.

When I say I "put my faith in RL" I don't mean it literally, I just mean that I will be hoping that those POE's and that their oil is half as good as they claim, I should be ok. If a higher HTHS is the key here. I am not sure. Here is a quote from another well respected 4G63 Engine builder. Been working on 4G63's for over 20 yrs. When I asked them what oil they use, this was my question to him:

Mike,

I have been on the phone with Dave over at Redline for the past few months on which oil to run in my Evo. He recommended the 5/30 so I bought some and that is what is in my car now. Now my bud James, is telling me I F*d up and should run nothing less than a 10/40 if not a 20/50.

Now Mike, I know you know the 4G63 probably better than anyone, does the specs such that I need to run that thick of an oil? The HTHS rating of the 5/30 I am running is 3.8 which is higher than most 40W oils. I am running a stock block, stock turbo, Cozzie M3's and BC springs and retainers, Im running 26psi at WOT and have not solo II'd in some time. I mainly just DD the car with some spirited driving mixed in.

I know you use and sell Redline. So what should I be using viscosity wise, and why?

Thanks for your time Mike, I just want to put the right oil in. James was telling me to run 20/50 Royal Purple pretty much year round since we are in SoCal and temps don't get below zero. I value your opinion. Please help haha.

His Response:


Daily driver street cars here get Redline 15/50

Race cars here get Redline 20/50

I hope you guys are starting to see why I am so confused. I just don't know what to do about this? Do I just play it safe and use RL 10/40? or 5/40? I mean 15/50 RL has a pretty High HTHS. I mean REALLY High for a Daily Driven Car??

Thoughts Everyone?

Jeff
 
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If they can't say why, then run what you want to run.

105c doesn't seem too too hot. Whats your oil temp in the same situation at stock boost and tune?

PSI gauge is for you to get before the next day at the track.

If 10w30 is the required weight, I'd go to a 40wt for peace of mind. 0w40 will work well year round. Plenty of visc and HTHS.
 
Jeff, with 105C sump oil temps I'm even more confident that the RL 5W-30 is as thick as you'd want to go.

RL 15W-50 is an insanely heavy oil, about 12% heavier than Castrol's TWS 10W-60 and I'm not even going to comment on the 20W-50. The use of these oils is clearly to compensate for some deficit as unDummy and others have alluded to but has not been rectified; for example the oil pump itself.

Or, oil starvation. An overly thick oil can buy you some critical seconds. That's one thing an OP gauge will tell you; whether or not you're getting oil pickup under some aggressive driving conditions.
 
One other comment, with oil temp's of only 105C, running an oil much heavier than what you already are will undoubtedly mean running the oil pump in by-pass mode most of the time; which is never a good thing and a clear indication that you're running an oil that is too thick.
 
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I would like an OP guage, but honestly, any decent ones for my car run several hundred dollars plus install. I could do it myself, but not sure if I would want to tackle it. I will think on it. Its not that a couple of hundred dollars is a lot, but money is extremely tight for me lately.


If you can somehow find out if your ECM has OP reported to it at all, you would be able to use a Scan Tool/Gauge, or UltraGauge. Both of these are direct OBD2 port plug-ins with NO other devices needed.

Or a PLX Kiwi/Innovate Motorsports wifi OBD2 interface with an iPhone or iPod Touch
This would be MUCHO less $$$$ (and install hassle) than a dedicated, hard wired, OP gauge.
Problem is, it seems that VERY FEW ECMs have OP reported to them through the CAN BUS systems.
frown.gif


BTW; are the Cossie M3s the cams?? (As in Cosworth?)
 
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I would like an OP guage, but honestly, any decent ones for my car run several hundred dollars plus install. I could do it myself, but not sure if I would want to tackle it. I will think on it. Its not that a couple of hundred dollars is a lot, but money is extremely tight for me lately.


If you can somehow find out if your ECM has OP reported to it at all, you would be able to use a Scan Tool/Gauge, or UltraGauge. Both of these are direct OBD2 port plug-ins with NO other devices needed.

Or a PLX Kiwi/Innovate Motorsports wifi OBD2 interface with an iPhone or iPod Touch
This would be MUCHO less $$$$ (and install hassle) than a dedicated, hard wired, OP gauge.
Problem is, it seems that VERY FEW ECMs have OP reported to them through the CAN BUS systems.
frown.gif


BTW; are the Cossie M3s the cams?? (As in Cosworth?)


Yes Cosworth M3 Cams
smile.gif
They are 280 Intake/272 Exhaust 11.5 lift duration, one of the most aggressive available for the Evo.

I do have the scanning tool for my car, I would data log often but have not been able to lately since the software I have is not compatable with Windows Vista on my laptop.

That is an VERY good idea about the Blue tooth OBDII to Cell phone. Currently I have a Blackberry and it is not compatable, but I am due for a new cell. I am looking into a Android Powered phone and I could download Torx I think it is called and that should work fine, Assuming that my ECU reads oil pressure. I will email my friend about that right now.

Very good Idea
thumbsup2.gif


Jeff
 
Well just got off the cell with my friend, No the Evo OEM ECU does not read oil pressure. So that excellent Idea is out the window. I do have a fitting on my oil filter housing that Is just a blank plug, I can take that plug out, put in a brass adapter put a oil pressure sending unit there, run it up the firewall and put a gauge on the steering colum so I don't have to mess with my OEM gauges. mmmmmm

I also texted my friend about what PSI these "oil pressure" failures happen. See if he replies with some Data. Would really help. I know some folks at redline run around 100psi. I am not sure of the mods folks have though.

So will see what he says. I may be as stubborn as a mule, but I really think what Caterham said about the RL 5/30 is true. It should be all I need. I just have to prove the tuner wrong, or just prove that its not the oil per say, but something else. I can't see it being a flaw in the car, if it was, there would be allot of complaints. In the 8 yrs I have owned Evo's this is the FIRST time I have heard of these so called "failures".

Jeff
 
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That's just not right. I am not aware of any modern OBDII automobile that the ECU/PCM does not know oil pressure.

Maybe you can't easily access it, but it should be there.
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
That's just not right. I am not aware of any modern OBDII automobile that the ECU/PCM does not know oil pressure.

Maybe you can't easily access it, but it should be there.



I know the car has an oil pressure sending unit OEM so it reads pressure, but I guess it can't be accessed from the data logging software. I can email the company that makes the software for Evo and see what they say.

I did get an email back from one other very respected Evo Engine builder, and they stated they use 20/50 in Evo's that are raced. 10/40 for street cars on a stock block and turbo is fine.

Now since the RL 5/30 that I am using has the HTHS of a 40w then that kinda tells me right there too that I should be fine. I just want to get an idea of where all this Oil Pump/Pressure stuff causes failures and how 20/50 oil has become the "band-aid" that puzzles me.

Jeff
 
Could be that the 20w50's added film thickness/strength when oil control is lost(temp/pressure/flow/level...)... but I don't believe it. Its probably just some low quality gear self-destruction at high rpm. Getting an honest answer is like pulling teeth. Old school mechanic mentality kicks in for no reason.

Interesting video 1000mile 20w50 Evo sludge
 
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Now since the RL 5/30 that I am using has the HTHS of a 40w then that kinda tells me right there too that I should be fine. I just want to get an idea of where all this Oil Pump/Pressure stuff causes failures and how 20/50 oil has become the "band-aid" that puzzles me.


I would agree, and only go to the RL 10W-40 if you decide to open track/Solo 1 TT/Time Attack the 9.

Or, if you REALLY DO drive the p**s out of it in the street, during hot Cali summers, then maybe mix the two like I do.
wink.gif
 
I've learned my lesson, only Brad Penn 20w50 or Amsoil Dominator 15w50, been through countless oil pumps and motors trying to get away with thin oils looking for every last HP.
 
Originally Posted By: CBRE
I've learned my lesson, only Brad Penn 20w50 or Amsoil Dominator 15w50, been through countless oil pumps and motors trying to get away with thin oils looking for every last HP.


If thats the case and your driving an Evo 8/9 then you should check out the link from UNDUMMY up above.

If you are talking 600whp+ Drag car, or track dedicated car ONLY then I can see running a 20/50. That dense oil is not needed for a DD car with stock internals (bottom end) IMO, especially if your running a high HTHS oil like Redline. Their 30w is better than most 40w's on the market (correct me if im wrong please) needing a thicker HTHS than 3.8 with stock internals makes no sense to me, especially since OEM recommends M1 10/30 which has a HTHS of 3.2. I AutoX on ocasion, and if I ever get my Evo up at Willow Springs, or Chuckawalla Raceway, I will run RL 10/40. Since the car goes to work and back and I drive within the legal limits (kinda of hehe) I really think the 5/30 RL should be all I need.

Any Other Opinions? They are much appreciated.


Jeff
 
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Wonder what made that oil in the video thicken up like that? My oils always seem to thin out,not thicken.
 
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Wonder what made that oil in the video thicken up like that? My oils always seem to thin out,not thicken.


Im not sure, but I am sure some Oil Guru here could shed some light to the "why". I do feel that Brad Penn should have plenty of additives in it to prevent sludge,

Is there anyone that can forward that link to someone that may know? Maybe Johnny??

Jeff
 
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