20/50 Oil in an Evo? Partially Explained

[bluesubie]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Redline is a cut above because of its POE base stock and exceptionally high HTHS for a given KV.


+1. Jeff, I hope you have read CATERHAM's posts on HTHS, and Mola and Toms's papers on esters.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=729310&page=1

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1252272#Post1252272

-Dennis

 

[dparm]

Not necessarily moly plating, but it's the "attraction" of the esters to the metal cylinder walls, for example.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

OK everyone, the plot is thickening here on the oil debate for the 4G63 Evo. I cant get my friend and 4G63 Engine builder to budge on the 20/50 oil and he STILL maintains the fact that its the BEST OIL for the Evo 4G63. IT BOGGLES MY MIND!!! Im going f r i c k e n nuts over this.

Here is HIS side of the story then I will just say how I feel, then get opinions from folks hopefully.

One, and I have to say this, this person is not some backyard mechanic guy. He has torn down more 4G63 Evo's than I can count, Not to mention that HIS Mentor is one of the most respected 4G63 Evo engine builders in the country.

With that said, EVERYTHING I have learned thus far about oil goes against EVERYTHING my friend says to do.

He claims that when he tears down customers cars that he has modified over the years and have advised the 20/50 oil that there is no visable wear on ANY crucial engine parts. Actually quite the opposite. LESS wear than using a 30w!! Now these cars were tore down not because there was a failure, but the customer wanted to stroke the motor.

He has nevr had an engine come back due to a failure since he opened his own shop over 5 yrs ago. Thats even with Evo's pushing 600whp that are raced frequently.

I inquired about HIS oil temps in his particualr evo and he says he gets 50c in town and about 80c on the track or on the dyno. I'm like huh????? Im just scratching my head here. Makes NO SENSE!! I said, wouldnt it be better to have an oil that is a tad lighter to get your temps up so you can rev more freely? He says No. I said wouldn't it improve performance and decrease wear? He says No. And proves it by showing me engines in his shop. Next time I go I can take pics, but this was a couple of weeks abo when I posted about the Oil Pump issue.

Now the OEM oil temp guage on the Evo 8/9 (4G63 powered evo's) the sensor is in the drain plug of the oil pan. So its not in the best spot, but gives a good overall average. We all know certain parts get hotter than others.

I threw at him about HTHS values, VI values, How the RL 5/30 I am using doesn't even get passed 70c driving me back and forth to work, I through the whole sha bang at this guy and he still won't budge.

I am still trying to get oil pump pressues, and oil pressure by pass numbers because I just feel this oil is so thick (the 20/50) that it would basically put the car in by pass mode at every start up practically. I just can't prove it!! I didn't realize getting this info would be so dificult.

It just doesn't make sense. He showed me the oil squirters, the cylinder walls, the pistons, rings, bearings, all looked and were new looking in appearance, and all within factory spec. It just boggles the mind, or least mine.

Can anyone shed some light on how this is possible? It makes no sense, wouldn't the thicker oil be harder for the oil to drip down back to the pan? Wouldn't a lighter viscosity be better for heat transfer? Im not talking just race purposes, I mean for DAILY driving. These cars are DAILY driven and show NO ABNORMAL WEAR AT ALL!!!

Please help me understand. I feel like a complete idiot here. 2+2=5??? Or what?? haha


Jeff

 

[Johnny]

Probably would not do any good, but I would suggest your tech have a long conversation with Dave at Red Line.

 

[NateDN10]

Your engine builder has proven that 20W-50 does a good job. He hasn't proven that it's better than 10W-40 or 5W-30, only that it does a good job.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Thanks Guys, He just makes me feel like I am doing something wrong and I get really self concious about it. Im holding true to the 5/30 RL I am currently using.

My gutt feeling is telling me not to go with the 20/50 and stick with the RL. So thats what I am going to do.

Jeff

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

I was checking my oil today and its looking kinda dirty with about 2500 miles on it. I understand that the POE Oil will do a thorough clense of the engine, but since I was using High Quality synthetics since day one I am just surprised to see the oil this dirty. I am sure its some kind of fuel dilution as well since most turbo cars run a little rich, but what do you guys think?

I am planning on doing my first UOA of the oil at 3000 miles.

Jeff
http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd502/jeffs2006evoix/RLwith2500miles.jpg[/IMG]]Rl Oil With 2500 Miles

 

[A_Harman]

If it has taken 2500 miles for the oil to look dirty on the dipstick, that sounds pretty normal. Fuel dilution only becomes an issue if a lot of WOT running is done. When you are not running under boost, the A/F should be stoichiometric. Normal street driving doesn't allow for a lot of running with boost.

I am not surprised that the engines don't look worn after running with xw50. The higher viscosity means thicker oil film, but who knows if the film is 100% thicker than it needs to be, or only 50% thicker? Either way, there will be no wear. The heavier oil gives more margin for a second or two when the oil supply pressure gets interrupted. If the car is not being operated in that kind of condition, the 50-weight oil is not helping.

I refer you to the graph that I posted in the following thread:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2188539#Post2188539

On the graph, the extended drops in oil pressure between 1520 and 1530 seconds and at 1630 seconds are the kind of event that should be looked for to diagnose poor oil control. This is not the kind of thing that a driver can detect because it occurs at maximum G's in a turn when his eyes should be focused down the road.

I don't believe the oil temps when he quotes 50c for around town and 80c on the track. 80C? Maybe in a drag race or for a single dyno pull, but not on a track day.

As far as understanding the performance of the oil system; that is difficult. It does take a lot of effort to put pressure and temperature sensors at all of the critical points, and a lot of analysis to understand what the data means. I have been professionally involved in development of oil systems on three distinctly different engine designs, and it is a subject that fills up a work day. Many of them, in fact.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Thanks Harman you always have some good input to bring to the table. I do data log my car as well, but my data saftware doesn't like the Windows Vista in my laptop, so I have not run it for a little bit till I can get that issue resolved.

Interestingly enough, the data logger doesn't show Oil Pressure. I know there is an oil pressure sending unit on the car, All modern cars have them. So I am not sure what the deal is. Maybe the ECU doesn't record it? Maybe the ECU just uses the sensor as a toggle switch, when oil pressure drops to a certain pressure the idiot light comes on? So maybe that is why it can't be logged. Its not being constantly monitored. That is my guess.

I am actually contimplating putting my car completely back to Stock. I think after 4 yrs of drone from a 3" full exhaust with a Magnaflow race muffler is finally getting to me. Here in CA its SO DIFICULT to get away with mods these days. The cops hassle folk more over car related stuff than looking for drug traffic. Its just crazy.

So I am on the fence to just put the car back to stock. I would lose about 90-100whp but would gain peace of mind, and some quiet. Well as quiet as an Evo can be, haha.

Im just continuing the run of the RL 5/30. The car seems to like it, and I have been logging on average 1-2 mpg's better, quiter motor at start up and reduced turbo lag. Some can chalk this up to "whatever variances" but I have checked my mileage every week since the day I bought this car. The past 3 months while using RL 5/30 the MPG's have gradually gone up. I also cross reference that with the same time years prior, So I am pretty impressed.

Anyway, I will keep you guys posted. Even a bone stock Evo 9 is pretty fast. We will see.

Jeff

 

[dailydriver]

Sell all of the "boost" parts, and use the coin to mod the suspension/unibody/rolling stock for handling.

(Or do the Cali LEOs hassle you for that as well?

)

 

[A_Harman]

Maybe you can just put on a quieter muffler to make the cops happy?

 

[CATERHAM]

The conclusions I've come to from this long convoluted thread is that firstly, the suggested 20W-50 oil is a "backyard" remedy to deal with the inevitable oil starvation that comes from "pushing" a wet sumped engine. Very heavy oil does help offset the "death rattle" that ensues when you're sucking air.

Now that I know your oil temps are low; 90C max' in the summer and only 70C-75C in the winter (not all that atypical really) I'm going to withdraw my 5W-30 RL recommendation. It's fine for the summer but my guess from my own experience with RL 5W-30 is that you won't be able to use maximum rev's without your oil pump going into by-pass mode at oil temp's below 90C.
I suggest when the temp's cool in the fall (and your oil temp's fail to get above 80C) you go back to the spec' 30wt oil grade for your engine. With RL I'd suggest their 0W-30 and if that is too expensive then any syn 5W-30 like PP or PU. If you want a higher Phos' level to deal with your stiff valve springs then buy a bottle of RL Break-In Additive; it will cover at least 4 or 5 oil changes:
http://www.redlineoil.com/Products.aspx?pcid=1

 

[CATERHAM]

Or how about Falex's 50,000 miles on 0W-20 as in this 400hp Evo;

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...;gonew=1#UNREAD

 

[AlienBug]

^^I can hear his friends's heads exploding all the way from CT.

 

[A_Harman]

I think that's the funniest thing I've ever read on BITOG!

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: AlienBug
^^I can hear his friends's heads exploding all the way from CT.

^^^

Yes, all of those tuners would completely 'disown' Jeff. (And probably never speak to him again if he dared to use ANY 0W-20 oil, no matter how phenomenal it has proven to be!!)

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

First off guys, Thanks for all your replies. I know everyone is busy out there and taking the time to comment means allot, so Thanks there

Its a tough Call on the RL for me thus far. I do like the oil and as I stated earlier its the only oil I have used that I actually noticed a difference in the car. Especially cold starts. Untill I know what PSI the oil system goes into by pass mode, I have no clue of really knowing. Summer is almost here, and I will keep the redline in.

I do agree my oil temps are not very high, even today driving home in 70F weather the temp read this:

http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd502/jeffs2006evoix/evotemp1-22-11.jpg[/IMG]]Oil Temp.


In the Mornings when I go to work where temps are in the 50's right now + or - 5F of ambient temp, these are my temps:

http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd502/jeffs2006evoix/EvoOilTemp-02-01-23-11.jpg[/IMG]]Oil Temp.


Also, of note, while I had the OEM fill (Mobil 1)and the oil recommended in the manual (viscosity not brand) is 10/30. The oil temps were right around where you see them now.

I will see how they fair in the summer in 120+F summer heat. With the Mobil 1 I would see 90-95C on average in the summer, but while on the dyno the oil was seen around 105C with M1.

The manual only mention the use of 5/30 if the ambient air temp is below 0F and SYNTHETIC OIL ONLY is printed in letters that are so bold that Helen Keller can read them with her fingers!!

When I get the info on the oil by pass setting I will report back to see if that changes anyone's advise.

Thanks for all the input, its REALLY appreciated.

Jeff

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: AlienBug
^^I can hear his friends's heads exploding all the way from CT.

^^^

Yes, all of those tuners would completely 'disown' Jeff. (And probably never speak to him again if he dared to use ANY 0W-20 oil, no matter how phenomenal it has proven to be!!)


Boy You Guys got that Right!! Im the laughing stock on the west coast for using 5/30 already!!! As smart as the tuners are and how great the mechanics are that build super Evo's, no one seems to know nothing about oil. REALLY KNOW. But yet, I am learning here on BITOG, and for that I am looked down upon.

Crazy world huh? haha

Jeff

 

[aquariuscsm]

Your Evo is a daily driver,right? I`d just keep using the M1 10W30EP. I remember seeing your cam pics and it looks brand new! If it`s a race car only,then Redline,but otherwise,the M1.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

I thought about going back to the M1. The thing is, the car starts much better, and my MPG's are up 1-2mpg's on average over M1 which makes no sense since the RL has a higher HTHS, but maybe a much better additive package?

All I know is the car likes the RL. I like being able to buy the M1 at wallyworld, its sure is conveinent, but I can't deny the fact that the valvetrain is quieter, the improved MPG's plus reduced turbo lag. Some can veiw that as "opinion" but its just what I have noticed. Not to mention I have over 4 yrs of data logs, MPG spread sheet archives to prove it.

When in doubt, do nothing. That is my attitude right now. I will do a UOA of this batch of RL 5/30 (first fill) in about 500 miles. Then go from there.

Jeff