2 UOAs: Mobil 1 10w40+Lucas OS, 7000 & 9000 miles, 2005 Dodge Caravan 3.8L

[Robvette]

Some UOAs I realized I hadn't shared: The first 9000 mile UOA was when my family super-overloaded our minivan ultimate with 3 kids, our dog, my wife and I, 5 bicycles and camping and cooking gear and we drove across and all around the country for a little more than 5 weeks. The oil became super thick because the car started the journey with M1 10w40 High Mileage and Lucas Oil Stabilizer, and ... the only top up oil I used for the whole 9000 mile trip was Lucas Oil Stabilizer. The second 7000 mile UOA was also M1 + Lucas and just us driving all around the mountains near our home going to bike races and everywhere else. Bonus points if you can guess where in the US we were in the minivan in picture 2

This minivan was broken down on the side of the road at a time when I was looking for a minivan. I helped the owner push it into a nearby parking lot and asked her what she planned to do with it. She said she had already gotten another car, she wanted this minivan out of her life, and a scrap yard was going to give her $200 for it. I said "I'll give you $200 for it." A few months later, after doing a bunch of repairs and past due maintenance, I left my job and used the small small severance I received to head cross country with my family. A little of our trip was documented here facebook.com/rosiesfarts

 

[Jackson_Slugger]

It looks like the Lucas is gutting the additive pack and adding nothing...

http://www.pqiamerica.com/June%202014/mobil1530a.htm

Mobil 1 SAE 0W-20 High Mileage Full Synthetic Motor Oil | The Petroleum Quality Institute of America

pqia.org

 

[Artem]

Yea the additives are extremely low. I’m shocked.

 

[fantastic]

Echoing the others. I really didn't realize how much Lucas dilutes the add pack. Where did all of the Tin come from on the first run? Other than the Tin it appears the wear is low on this engine especially for a 250k van.

I'll guess some BLM land out west.

 

[CleverUserName]

Lol 31 cSt @ 100c.

 

[OVERKILL]

Echoing the others. I really didn't realize how much Lucas dilutes the add pack. Where did all of the Tin come from on the first run? Other than the Tin it appears the wear is low on this engine especially for a 250k van.

I'll guess some BLM land out west.

Tin is typically bearing material.

Unfortunately, given how much Lucas diluted the additive package, it would be foolish to draw any conclusions about wear. Look at the calcium and magnesium levels, both detergents and dispersants are a fraction of their intended levels, so would be far less capable of doing their job and keeping wear particles and contamination in suspension.

It's a bit like running a UOA on an ND30 and it looks awesome, because all the wear metals and contaminants are sitting in areas of low flow, never being drawn into suspension.

 

[Robvette]

didn't realize how much Lucas dilutes the add pack

Probably 2-3 quarts of Lucas were added as make-up oil over the 9000 road trip.

The minivan ultimate generally doesn’t use that much make up oil, but it was seriously overloaded and working hard through deserts and up and over mountain passes.

Other than the Tin it appears the wear is low on this engine especially for a 250k van.

The tin is curious, and it disappeared on the next UOA.

@fantastic mentioned the low wear. For a 250,000+ mile van that was worked really hard, I feel like we should at least acknowledge that the use of Lucas correlated with low wear in both samples.

In contrast, we can say with a high level of confidence that the use of Lucas caused the viscosity increases and the add pack dilution.

If these UOAs showed elevated wear metals, then this community would certainly note the correlation with the use of Lucas. Many would attribute causation.

I’m not trying to poke the anti-Lucas bear, but balanced UOA discussions acknowledge noteable correlations.

If you’re not a fan of Lucas you’d note that add pack dilution.

If you are a fan of Lucas you’d note the low wear rates in extreme operating conditions.

A balanced discussion mentions both.

 

[OVERKILL]

Minor point - lighter oil add packs are generally greater in ppm.

No they aren't.

All the Mobil 1 HM oils are supposed to have 800ppm phosphorous and 870ppm zinc.

 

[fantastic]

Tin is typically bearing material.

Unfortunately, given how much Lucas diluted the additive package, it would be foolish to draw any conclusions about wear. Look at the calcium and magnesium levels, both detergents and dispersants are a fraction of their intended levels, so would be far less capable of doing their job and keeping wear particles and contamination in suspension.

It's a bit like running a UOA on an ND30 and it looks awesome, because all the wear metals and contaminants are sitting in areas of low flow, never being drawn into suspension.

Thanks & I'd not thought about the lower add pack not "Picking" up & carrying the oil contamination contributing to a potentially lower wear reading on a UOA. It's possible I suppose.

 

[FranklinJL]

Lucas Oil Stabilizer?

 

[JavierH19]

Lucas Oil Stabilizer?

The devil

 

[OVERKILL]

Thanks & I'd not thought about the lower add pack not "Picking" up & carrying the oil contamination contributing to a potentially lower wear reading on a UOA. It's possible I suppose.

All just part and parcel of what "fully formulated" means when it comes to blending oil. These concentration levels aren't picked at random, so when you massively dilute them, like we are seeing here, it makes everything less effective.

So, not only is there a staggering reduction in the AW chemistry (look at that phosphorous! ) but there is an equal reduction in the oil's detergent/dispersant chemistry.

 

[Robvette]

given how much Lucas diluted the additive package, it would be foolish to draw any conclusions about wear.

Fwiw - the 9000 mile UOA was in more harsh conditions and received more make-up Lucas. The 7000 mile UOA more normal operating conditions, less make-up Lucas, less dilution, 50 weight viscosity, and also low wear.

looks awesome, because all the wear metals and contaminants are sitting in areas of low flow, never being drawn into suspension

It seems like if this were true the wear metal numbers in the next UOA would be elevated?

I’m not saying you’re wrong,

No they aren't.

All the Mobil 1 HM oils are supposed to have 800ppm phosphorous and 870ppm zinc.
View attachment 176989

Thank you for the correction, I updated my post.

 

[cptbarkey]

So your other thread on lucas went sideways and suddenly you whip out a lucas UOA you forgot about. Ok.

 

[OVERKILL]

Fwiw - the 9000 mile UOA was in more harsh conditions and received more make-up Lucas. The 7000 mile UOA more normal operating conditions, less make-up Lucas, less dilution, 50 weight viscosity, and also low wear.

But still considerable dilution. 506ppm of phosphorous compared to what's supposed to be 800ppm, that's notable. As I said, I don't think we can draw any conclusions about wear.

It seems like if this were true the wear metal numbers in the next UOA would be elevated?

Oils aren't designed to clean, they are designed to keep things clean. If you have deposits already laid-down, very little of that is going to get drawn into suspension. Combined with the fact that the next UOA also had a diluted DI package, no, I wouldn't expect that to be the case.

I’m not saying you’re wrong,

I suspect if you did a run with Redline, AMSOIL or HPL, you'd see much higher levels of pretty much everything. Not that I'd recommend spending that sort of money on an almost 20 year old Dodge van with 200,000 miles on it.

Thank you for the correction, I updated my post.

You are quite welcome.

 

[Robvette]

Unfortunately, given how much Lucas diluted the additive package, it would be foolish to draw any conclusions about wear.

fwiw - another explanation for low wear in these higher viscosity UOAs could possibly be “in some applications and in some operating conditions increasing viscosity reduces wear”.

 

[kschachn]

fwiw - another explanation for low wear in these higher viscosity UOAs could possibly be “in some applications and in some operating conditions increasing viscosity reduces wear”.

What?

You are really digging some deep holes here based on some very flawed notions about the significance of a completely uncontrolled $30 spectrographic analysis.

 

[cptbarkey]

fwiw - another explanation for low wear in these higher viscosity UOAs could possibly be “in some applications and in some operating conditions increasing viscosity reduces wear”.

You conveniently and selectively ignored the below much more important comment at the peril of your Caravan. I'm not that kind of risk taker myself, especially with family.

It's a bit like running a UOA on an ND30 and it looks awesome, because all the wear metals and contaminants are sitting in areas of low flow, never being drawn into suspension.

 

[edyvw]

Probably 2-3 quarts of Lucas were added as make-up oil over the 9000 road trip.

The minivan ultimate generally doesn’t use that much make up oil, but it was seriously overloaded and working hard through deserts and up and over mountain passes.


The tin is curious, and it disappeared on the next UOA.

@fantastic mentioned the low wear. For a 250,000+ mile van that was worked really hard, I feel like we should at least acknowledge that the use of Lucas correlated with low wear in both samples.

In contrast, we can say with a high level of confidence that the use of Lucas caused the viscosity increases and the add pack dilution.

If these UOAs showed elevated wear metals, then this community would certainly note the correlation with the use of Lucas. Many would attribute causation.

I’m not trying to poke the anti-Lucas bear, but balanced UOA discussions acknowledge noteable correlations.

If you’re not a fan of Lucas you’d note that add pack dilution.

If you are a fan of Lucas you’d note the low wear rates in extreme operating conditions.

A balanced discussion mentions both.

What are extreme operation conditions? Nothing here looks extreme.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

It looks like the Lucas is gutting the additive pack and adding nothing...

http://www.pqiamerica.com/June%202014/mobil1530a.htm

Mobil 1 SAE 0W-20 High Mileage Full Synthetic Motor Oil | The Petroleum Quality Institute of America

pqia.org

I was gonna say… Lucas has taken nearly all the additives below the level of any acceptable industry limits. Gee, sounds like a great idea of something you’re paying extra for!