[1998 Fiat TD100] How clear is suspiciously clear?

[chrisri]

Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
i've never ever seen clear oil in a diesel (regardless of EGR). they get dirty just after an oil change and the very first start. something is seriously wrong here. do we know oil pump is working at all?


I have seen it, with my own car and others. It's the leftover soot loaded oil that colours the newoil black, but if tere's little old oil left and with little soot loading (no egr) the oil can stay light for a while.


Agreed, oil stays clean 1-2 k on my Stilo after oil change. However on my old 156 jtd turned dark much sooner.

 

[Popsy]

Changed the oil to Rimula R6 moments ago, also changed the accessoiry belt (this motor is like eating them, one accessoiry belt kit every two years!) with the help of my girlfriend (she wanted to go to the beach, that's why she helped!).

I started the motor, drove 10 meters to park the car, and oil was very dark again, 500 meters more and it will be black

Looks like the Frankenbrew was not that good for soot dispersion...

I used a Purflux oil filter, wonder if these filters are really that good. Production seems to be split between France (with lazy grumpy workers who drink way too much red wine) and Slovenia ; the Mannfilter I bought look better built. One day I'll cut one open to check.

Edit: also I recently did an oil change for a friend which has a Citroen C3 1,4l HDI (8v 70ch), dealer filled with unknown 10w40 (I know), after 19000Km and two years (yeah I know) oil was moderately dark. Put some Shell Helix 5w40, still clear after 2000km...and it has EGR, but mostly do highway.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: Popsy


I started the motor, drove 10 meters to park the car, and oil was very dark again, 500 meters more and it will be black

Looks like the Frankenbrew was not that good for soot dispersion...



WOW, this is crazy. who knew mixing diesel oil with gas oil cancels them out?

 

[Popsy]

I can't guarantee the exact amount of gas oil, maybe there was more than 50% of it?
But these gas oil were also API CF certified. What is the meaning of it it can't handle soot properly

 

[Garak]

I suspect a CF rated oil would be nowhere near as capable as even a CI-4 oil, let alone something current or an ACEA E rated oil, would be.

 

[friendly_jacek]

makes no sense. the world was running on diesel fine even before API:CF. case in point: i actually had fiat uno diesel that ran on API:CE or even CD just fine. i think once i used CC by mistake. they were black like coal all the time. this is a complete mystery to me.

 

[Garak]

It is a strange story. I wasn't meaning that older lubes weren't able to hold soot and never turned black right away. I was just noting that if I see something on the shelf that claims CF these days (as an obsolete specification), I'm a little skeptical at putting it into service as an HDEO in a diesel, even in an older application that fits CF.

 

[Popsy]

In the past (let's say 3-4 years ago), I wasn't interested in oil, and put whatever came handy in my cars, oil was always black in diesels, and this was actually the fist time I saw clear oil in this low tech diesel...The motor was running fine and smooth (as smooth as it can at least), but I was just not feeling comfortable with this oil.

I suspect more some sort of interaction between the oils mixed, since before putting Rimula I used to put Helix HX7 10W40 in the car, and it's only a CF oil (was running very black). I could send a sample for a VOA, but I don't think we'll see anything special...or I could send a sample to a BITOGer willing to try, but I don't have much more than 1L left.

I'm a bit sceptical regarding CF specifications, the other day I spent some time in different store looking for oil, ALL diesel oils (no exception, but there was no truck oils) were carrying CF specification at best (there were some CD), even Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel 0W-40 is CF.

 

[Garak]

In North America, few bother with showing the CF any longer. There aren't a lot of older European diesels around here actually calling for CF, and anyone who's got a pickup or piece of agricultural equipment calling for CF will almost certainly be buying a CJ-4 HDEO.

I do believe that things like GC and the M1 0w-40 still show the CF, but no one who needs CF or older would seriously consider those lubes due to the cost. I can't see someone with an old Cummins truck or Case tractor running to Walmart or Canadian Tire and bringing back a shopping cart of M1 0w-40 or GC, unless they had more money than brains.

 

[chrisri]

Originally Posted By: Garak
I suspect a CF rated oil would be nowhere near as capable as even a CI-4 oil, let alone something current or an ACEA E rated oil, would be.


Garak, all ACEA A3/B4 or B4 diesel specific ( pre DPF) are in fact only API CF rated. I can only assume that higher additive level in those oils are in a way to get later API spec.
But, that's no problem since all cars ( even American ) sold here only specified use of ACEA standard with individual additional specs.

 

[Garak]

I realize that. Modern CJ-4 HDEOs correspond very closely to the ACEA E specifications. However, CF is an obsolete specification and really shouldn't even be listed on a bottle. CF is not difficult to meet and lubes like M1 0w-40 would likely meet it with ease. However, not every oil that lists CF here necessarily would meet it. If I trust the company, like Mobil or Castrol or Shell, not a big deal; I'm sure it would meet it. And we do know there are shady companies out there selling garbage.

Similarly to your point, you won't see CF listed on an SN/GF-5 bottle, for similar reasons to what you outlined. Also, years ago, we also had oils with diesel specs prior to CF that you really wouldn't want to consider a dual-rated oil or even put into old diesel equipment, given the viscosity.

 

[chrisri]

Originally Posted By: Garak
In North America, few bother with showing the CF any longer. There aren't a lot of older European diesels around here actually calling for CF, and anyone who's got a pickup or piece of agricultural equipment calling for CF will almost certainly be buying a CJ-4 HDEO.

I do believe that things like GC and the M1 0w-40 still show the CF, but no one who needs CF or older would seriously consider those lubes due to the cost. I can't see someone with an old Cummins truck or Case tractor running to Walmart or Canadian Tire and bringing back a shopping cart of M1 0w-40 or GC, unless they had more money than brains.


Garak, in Europe oils are never dual rated. PCMO and HDEO are in general mutually exclusive. HDEO for semis' are always ACEA E rated and often full SAPS with up to 1.9% level. I'm taking about oils for EURO 5-6 engines, not old diesels. They need to be this way for OCI of up to 150k KM.
Oils for lighter trucks and vans are lowSAPS and probably API rated more up to date. But those vehicles use classic passive DPF-s like passenger cars.

M1 does have up to date diesel specification, ACEA B/4, pretty tough spec for long drains. But I know what you are trying to say

 

[Popsy]

It is quite difficult around here to buy HDEO oil. There are many stealership-like shops which sell overpriced light duty oil, but not much shop who sell HDEO. There are also a few online store where you can buy «ordinary» oils and some more specific like Motul 300V or so.
I've yet never seen acea E or more than api CF in store, not much choice except low saps or mineral

Things seem to be different in America, more small trucks I guess, also maybe more «oil educated» people

 

[chrisri]

Difference in engine oils in NA and Europe comes from catering different markets. Trucks in Europe have 3x longer OCI. No API rated oil could meet those requirements. Another difference is that Americans don't use small diesels in passenger cars. That's probably why API never bothered to make separate oil classification for them, instead they simply merged them with HDEO.
Aa for HDEO availability in EU, they are indeed not as available as passenger car oils because, aa I already mentioned earlier, are not dual rated to be used in small diesels or petrol cars. There are not much old, pre common rail diesel left here.
For reference only, I'm using HDEO Urania 5w30, an 1.9% SAPS oil in my petrol Ford for 10 years and 100k KM without issues. No excessive spark deposits, no power loss. Now with 200k it operates better than my neighbours Fiesta (same engine) that had only Ford approved diet all of its life.

 

[Garak]

We do have a substantial number of ACEA rated HDEOs in North America. Take a look at what's in my G37 as per my signature. Then, look up that product and note the ACEA specifications and builder approvals. Such oils are not particularly hard to find in North America. As for the API CJ-4 specification, do note that the ACEA uses that as its baseline for at least the E7 and E9 specifications. The ACEA specs have a higher minimum TBN and a SA maximum. Note that E6 lubes are becoming more common here, too. High ash E4 type lubes are extremely difficult to obtain in Canada. I can't find even one example on my Imperial Oil (Mobil) sell sheet. They seem to have been discontinued with the CJ-4 rollout.

The trucking industry here, at least with some operators, certainly does go for extended OCIs. Lower TBN HDEOS (as in around 7) do exist, even from the majors, but they certainly don't have all the builder approvals and they're not available at any better price than the E7, E9 types.

 

[chrisri]

M1 Delvac ESP have TBN of 10.1 and ash weight of 1.0%. This basic properties of this oil are very similar to a ACEA A3/B4 oils, and for that reason cannot be used in some HD engines in Europe, certainly not with average OCI of 100- 150k. I'm not aware NA Truckers practice such long OCI. I could be wrong.
IVECO and MB use for their HD engines oils with TBN of 16 and Ash levels around 1.8-1.9%. IVECO has an advantage over others because they were able to meet Euro 6 norm without use of EGR. As you know EGR is weak spot on modern HD engines.

 

[Garak]

Such OCIs have been done in North America, but certainly not ridiculously common or anything. It would be interesting for me to read through some more builder approvals. I know the McLaren F1 team used Delvac 1 LE 5w-30, an E9/E7/E6 CJ-4 lube (along with a laundry list of builder approvals), in their transport fleet. It, too, has the TBN of 10 and SA of 1%, with a lower phosphorous content.

Cummins had an aftermarket system some years ago that involved very slowly burning off engine oil with the fuel and replenishing it, along with bypass filtration and/or centrifuge. I extended the OCIs out into the hundreds of thousands of kilometers. I think there was a thread mentioning it in the HDEO section over the last couple months.

If you want to see some long OCIs in trucks that aren't necessarily using sky high TBN and SA levels, check some of Doug Hillary's posts. With respect to the really high TBN HDEOs and legacy lubes, I think Imperial Oil was fairly wise how they handled it in Canada. We use ULSD and any E7/E9 lube is more than up to the task in an older engine, considering some of the stuff that went into them years ago.

 

[chrisri]

Garak, in my previous posts I made false claims, only because was depending on outdated information.
This morning I made a call to my ex workmate who is managing fleet of MAN, IVECO and MB semis. And indeed they have been using full saps oils up to Euro V engines, but few years back with introduction of Euro V plus and 6 they've made transition to low saps oils in their Euro V, V-plus and 6 engines. Apparently Euro V can use both specs, but low saps is preferred option. Now they are using Petronas Urania 5w30 FE LS oil, similar oil to Delvac you're using in your car. MSDS of this oil says it's up to 85 % PAO, I can only imagine retail price.

 

[Garak]

I was kind of surprised with some of your claims, but all is well. I still consider the information you provided exceedingly useful, and still relevant to a lot of trucks undoubtedly still on the road in Europe. After all, the highest TBN/highest SA ACEA spec still is current. And I'm quite certain that not every truck on the road in Europe is brand new. Besides, just because something is new doesn't mean it's taken over completely. There are undoubtedly some rather outdated practices here, too. As for extended OCIs in North American trucking, I just recalled a discussion I had a couple years back with some in the industry here. They were using the Amsoil product.

The Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 I use is predominantly PAO, and I suspect that the Delvac 1 LE 5w-30 is as well. Oddly enough, high end HDEOs in Canada aren't terribly expensive, if one goes to the right place. In fact, as I've indicated before, the Delvac 1 I use is competitive, from my supplier, with the "regular" price on conventionals at a lot of our retail locations. I have heard of the Urania series, but that's something I have never come across here. I'm certainly not aware of any Petronas distribution line anywhere in Canada.

 

[chrisri]

Yeah, my professional career took a little detour for personal reasons, and apparently in this industry things change fast.
But now that i had talk with my workmate i have a bug in my mind. I can get this low SAPS version for same price i got full SAPS oil (free).
In your opinion, would you be confident to use this low SAPS 5w30 in engines requiring 5w40 A3/B4? Mind, it's still oil with HTHS over 3.5.