'17 Toyota Highlander V6 3.5L 2GR-FKS - SuperTech Advanced Full Synth 0W-20 10,368 miles

[dnewton3]

I see your point, but as you said, we'll have to disagree.

I don't understand why you call this "poor data"? What's the basis for that comment? Do you believe the data flawed? There's a difference between wanting more data, and calling existing data "poor". This isn't bad data at all; there's a lot to glean form this UOA: wear rates are excellent, contamination is nearly nil, and pyscial lube properties are inline with expected ranges. What is it exactly that seems "poor" to you??????????????

And while I agree that UOAs only see a sample of overall wear metals, it's also proven in multiple SAE studies that UOA wear data tracks with excellent correlation to particle loading. The lower the particle loading, the lower the wear data, and vice versa. If you have low wear data, the particle loads are reasonably good. That's not up for debate; it's proven in several studies. Further, one can infer the overall metal load from a sample; that's also a proven concept - in fact statistical sampling is used in pretty much every walk of life in every industry. Whatever your objection is to UOA data, I find myself in complete disagreement with you. UOA data is very informative.

I do agree with you on some level; UOAs are not a sole reason to justify longer OCIs. But they are an important element in making that decision. Here are the criteria I believe are important in making the OCI extension decision ...
- UOA wear trends of your individual piece of equipment
- UOA macro data of your equipment series
- UOA understanding of the benefits and limitations of the spectral technology
- Any known problems with your equipment series (does it have any historical Achilies heel such as known sludger, failed cam followers, etc?)
- visual inspections specific to your individual piece of equipment (under valve covers, etc)
- visual inspections specific to your equipment series (what do other folks see in their equipment?)
- UOA and PC analysis showing soot/insolubles and other contamination concerns like fuel, coolant, silica
- knowledge of the strengths/weaknesses of your lube selection (TBN, NOACK, etc)
ALL these are important in looking into the validity of OCI extentions. I would NEVER advocate for an OCI extension soley on a UOA. But I have scads of data on a plethora of vehicles; I know what the macro trends are and I keep my ear to the ground when it comes to mechanical issues as well.

In this thread, there are zero things wrong with the UOA itself; hard to imagine a better UOA. And the macro data for these engines indicates no specific concern, either. Further, this engine series is not known to be a sludger or have major mechanical issues; certainly none that would relate to an OCI duration. The lube he uses is a good quality group III. Has he popped a valve cover off to look inside? Dunno.

I agree that a UOA is not the ONLY reason to extend the OCI. But in this case, he's very safe in doing so because of many other criteria taken into consideration. 10k miles is clearly a winner. Longer ones may be possible, with a little more investigation on his part.

 

[ollie]

I’ll probably drop the OCI toward 5k then. I also thought these reports were good for seeing if the viscosity held up as well.

Not really sure how long I’ll keep this vehicle, but considering I had over 420,000 miles on the previous car it may be a while! That one predominately only saw conventional 10W-30 from Costco (Chevron), but it was 3k OCIs.

That Highlander is a sweet vehicle. My Mother has the same year model. And I would recommend 3k OCI's if it's within your budget and time. These newer vehicles run really hot to meet EPA emission standards. Anything over a 5K OCI is rolling the dice.

 

[Artem]

That Highlander is a sweet vehicle. My Mother has the same year model. And I would recommend 3k OCI's if it's within your budget and time. These newer vehicles run really hot to meet EPA emission standards. Anything over a 5K OCI is rolling the dice.

Do you have any proof of what you said? A screen shot of a direct link to the PCM, showing extra coolant temps as to suggest that the thermostat is on the hotter side ON PURPOSE?

I’ve personally owned several of these 2GR engines and they always seem to run just fine (I have hooked up a scan gauge and monitored coolant temps)

My personal UOA also showed that running my 2011 Avalon’s 3.5L to 2x the factory 5,000 mile OCI was perfectly fine and I could even go longer then 10k. Oil always came out looking great and the engine was spotless when I traded it in.

 

[dkryan]

Soobs,

Thanks for posting your UOA! It’s a great report.

What oil did you use in the Highlander immediately before this run of ST?
And what oil went back into the crankcase?

That Highlander is a sweet vehicle. My Mother has the same year model. And I would recommend 3k OCI's if it's within your budget and time. These newer vehicles run really hot to meet EPA emission standards. Anything over a 5K OCI is rolling the dice.

And Soobs, don’t follow this advice, please. A 3k OCI on this engine is absurd.
I wouldn’t consider a 5k OCI, either.

 

[Artem]

I couldn’t agree more. This engine series has been tweaked & perfected by Toyota since 2005!!! It’s a naturally aspirated, totally under-stressed 3.5L.

 

[ollie]

And Soobs, don’t follow this advice, please. A 3k OCI on this engine is absurd.
I wouldn’t consider a 5k OCI, either.

Most members on BITOG that recommend extended OCI's are those that don't run their vehicles for 300,000 miles and beyond. There is absolutely nothing wrong with 3K maintenance schedules.

Now of course if you are an oil hoarder who like to keep 100 quarts of stash instead of using it, then i can't help you.

 

[thunderfog]

Most members on BITOG that recommend extended OCI's are those that don't run their vehicles for 300,000 miles and beyond. There is absolutely nothing wrong with 3K maintenance schedules.

Now of course if you are an oil hoarder who like to keep 100 quarts of stash instead of using it, then i can't help you.

Nothing wrong with it except that it's incredibly wasteful of resources...

 

[ollie]

Do you have any proof of what you said? A screen shot of a direct link to the PCM, showing extra coolant temps as to suggest that the thermostat is on the hotter side ON PURPOSE?

I’ve personally owned several of these 2GR engines and they always seem to run just fine (I have hooked up a scan gauge and monitored coolant temps)

My personal UOA also showed that running my 2011 Avalon’s 3.5L to 2x the factory 5,000 mile OCI was perfectly fine and I could even go longer then 10k. Oil always came out looking great and the engine was spotless when I traded it in.

Unless you took apart the motor before you traded it in then you have no clue as to it's condition. And you make my point. You traded it in. So any OCI's are a moot point because the miles were low when you unloaded it.

I'm not here to change anyones mind as to "how many miles". We all have a routine we stick to. Mine is 3,000 OCI on my 4 wheeled vehicles (5K max if going cross country), 1K on my Super Tenere with shared transmission/engine oil and 10 hours on my dirt bikes.

Nothing wrong with it except that it's incredibly wasteful of resources...

Well I'm not a tree hugger or some freak environmentalist. I recycle my oil or dispose of it properly at a hazmat center. I choose to take pride in keeping my vehicles in the best shape as possible.

 

[Gene K]

Looks quite good to me. That said, having viewed VOAs of 10k mi. ST Syn vs the topic Advanced, I determined I wouldn't pay more for the Advanced. No doubt the Advanced performed well here. Be interesting to see how the 10k mi. version would have done. It's possible VOAs don't tell the whole story.

Just like M1 EP it looks unimpressive on a VOA compared to the standard fare but the UOA tells a different story.

 

[Sayjac]

Just like M1 EP it looks unimpressive on a VOA compared to the standard fare but the UOA tells a different story.

IDK about M1 EP. As noted, I have seen multiple VOAs of 10k mi St Syn vs at least one version/viscosity of the "Advanced". Can't say I was very impressed by the VOA of the latter. As for UOAs of topic vs 10k StSyn, 'I' haven't seen enough of the former draw any definitive conclusion. Even while allowing this report looks good, currently 'I' wouldn't pay more for the Advanced over the 10k ST Syn. Fwiw, I never get anywhere near a 20k mi. oci.

 

[Gene K]

Because most of those intervals are inadequate unless you want to sell it before 150K.

The only red flag I see on that report is the typo that listed mileage at 10,000 instead of 4,000 and the oil as ST instead of M1. What is the point of getting a UOA if we are going to ignore any data we get. The engine doesn't care what the brand or mileage is. It only cares about the condition of a correctly formulated lubricant in it.

I looked into Supertech decades ago and asked people what their issue with it was. It turned out they had no problem with Mobil and Chevron base stock, Lubrizol additive package or competent blender going through the correct API, ILSAC and GM testing procedure. They were upset they didn't get to pay the extra promotional cost of a name brand. It appears they are still upset about not getting to pay that cost, ST recently tried to make them happy by increasing the cost to $26.48 but alas they were still not satisfied.

 

[Gene K]

IDK about M1 EP. As noted, I have seen multiple VOAs of 10k mi St Syn vs at least one version/viscosity of the "Advanced". Can't say I was very impressed by the VOA of the latter. As for UOAs of topic vs 10k StSyn, 'I' haven't seen enough of the former draw any definitive conclusion. Even while allowing this report looks good, currently 'I' wouldn't pay more for the Advanced over the 10k ST Syn. Fwiw, I never get anywhere near a 20k mi. oci.

That was kind of my point. M1 EP doesn't look like it will last any longer than M1 Vanilla in VOA but has a higher residual TBN in actual use. This also appears to be the case with ST 20K. I'm buying drain interval when I buy oil, not trace elements which mean nothing because I can't judge anything without knowing the actual compounds the elements represent. You buy less wear when you buy the filter.

I haven't really figured out the point of VOA here. People hardly ever get the starting Nitration, Oxidation and TAN. I can't understand what kind of baseline they think they are getting.

 

[OVERKILL]

That was kind of my point. M1 EP doesn't look like it will last any longer than M1 Vanilla in VOA but has a higher residual TBN in actual use. This also appears to be the case with ST 20K. I'm buying drain interval when I buy oil, not trace elements which mean nothing because I can't judge anything without knowing the actual compounds the elements represent. You buy less wear when you buy the filter.

I haven't really figured out the point of VOA here. People hardly ever get the starting Nitration, Oxidation and TAN. I can't understand what kind of baseline they think they are getting.

And of course you aren't seeing any of the organics, which I've previously discussed, which are playing a significant role in modern formulations. You also don't see base oil composition, which plays a significant role in virgin oxidation, oxidation resistance, and other things.

 

[Accent Abuser]

I really didn’t think there was any difference between the regular ST and the advanced, except price. I might have been wrong. This looks a great report, a few more of these with different engines, I think would further prove there is a difference.

Only way to know for sure is do the same miles with the regular on the same engine to compare. With some oils tbn doesn't drop linearly, so starting tbn and even mid run tbn doesn't tell the whole story.

Either way, you won't see me using it when I can buy Quaker State for less.

 

[Artem]

Unless you took apart the motor before you traded it in then you have no clue as to it's condition. And you make my point. You traded it in. So any OCI's are a moot point because the miles were low when you unloaded it.

I have experience with the 1MZ-FE V6 3.0L in a 98 Camry that we bought new in 1997. I sold it with 220k miles on it to a friend. (plenty of UOA on it and various experiments throughout the years)

I still service that Camry from time to time and it currently sits at over 350,000 miles. The engine hasn’t been cracked open except for valve cover gaskets and timing belts. That thing is a supposed sludge motor too.

I have long term ownership experience, buddy. 100-200k is nothing for a modern engine. Oil change intervals isn’t an issue in regards to longevity.

 

[Gene K]

Unless you took apart the motor before you traded it in then you have no clue as to it's condition. And you make my point. You traded it in. So any OCI's are a moot point because the miles were low when you unloaded it.

I'm not here to change anyones mind as to "how many miles". We all have a routine we stick to. Mine is 3,000 OCI on my 4 wheeled vehicles (5K max if going cross country), 1K on my Super Tenere with shared transmission/engine oil and 10 hours on my dirt bikes.


Well I'm not a tree hugger or some freak environmentalist. I recycle my oil or dispose of it properly at a hazmat center. I choose to take pride in keeping my vehicles in the best shape as possible.

I don't claim to have much experience with extended oil changes (beyond factory recommended oil change intervals) with passenger vehicles. One of my commercial vehicles though did 1.2 million miles at 40,000 mi intervals (recommended was 15,000 mi) with conventional oil supported by UOA before the first major work. Liners walked and it blew a head gasket. People will make a point of large capacities but forget these vehicles average 6 mpg and spend most of the time between 6 and 30 psi of turbo boost. Incidentally the engine looked like any other million mile engine we have torn down. Light varnish and no sludge.

 

[Sayjac]

That was kind of my point. M1 EP doesn't look like it will last any longer than M1 Vanilla in VOA but has a higher residual TBN in actual use. This also appears to be the case with ST 20K. ....

I got your point that 'you' concluded M1 EP showing better than M1 in UOAs posted, that even though VOA not that impressive.

My point is I haven't seen enough UOAs of the topic Advanced to say it is superior to the 10k mile version, and thus worth the extra cost. While allowing this Advanced anecdote looks good, 'I' can't conclude from this singular Advanced data point that is the case.

Saw a 10k rated ST Syn 10w30 UOA very recently run 15k miles recently that looked quite good too. At this point there have been many more standard St Syn UOAs than Advanced. So, perhaps in time it will be shown the Advanced is indeed the better even though VOA unimpressive. I guess time will tell.

 

[Gene K]

I got your point that 'you' concluded M1 EP showing better than M1 in UOAs posted, that even though VOA not that impressive.

My point is I haven't seen enough UOAs of the topic Advanced to say it is superior to the 10k mile version, and thus worth the extra cost. While allowing this Advanced anecdote looks good, 'I' can't conclude from this singular Advanced data point that is the case.

Saw a 10k rated ST Syn 10w30 UOA very recently run 15k miles recently that looked quite good too. At this point there have been many more standard St Syn UOAs than Advanced. So, perhaps in time it will be shown the Advanced is indeed the better even though VOA unimpressive. I guess time will tell.

Another issue could be an artifact of the D4739 TBN Test most Analysis Services are using. As the ash kevels of HDEO has been lowered the D2896 TBN has stayed essentially flat but the D4739 TBN has dropped from 10.0 to 7..0. Apparently D4739 isn't picking up the organic adds now being used. Due to ash limits similar organic additives may be used for extended drain oils

 

[ollie]

Oil change intervals isn’t an issue in regards to longevity.

I don't buy into that.

don't claim to have much experience with extended oil changes (beyond factory recommended oil change intervals) with passenger vehicles. One of my commercial vehicles though did 1.2 million miles at 40,000 mi intervals (recommended was 15,000 mi) with conventional oil supported by UOA before the first major work. Liners walked and it blew a head gasket. People will make a point of large capacities but forget these vehicles average 6 mpg and spend most of the time between 6 and 30 psi of turbo boost. Incidentally the engine looked like any other million mile engine we have torn down. Light varnish and no sludge.

Commercial applications are a whole other world. At both companies I worked for all the rigs were serviced at about the intervals you are stating. They were city trucks. No idle time allowed. My boss and I did not agree to it but company policy had to be followed. I cringed every time I pulled into the yard and had to shut it down after a hard run on hot summer day. Needless to say starter motors and turbos were replaced a lot.

Ironically the bean counter shocked us all by showing the idle time fuel cost vs turbo replacement. In large fleets idle time is a huge money pit.

 

[thunderfog]

I don't buy into that

https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/2007-01-4133/

Well maybe this article dnewton3 posted in another thread will change your anecdotal tune. Credible source says frequent oil changes actually increase wear. Your methods are actually slightly harmful.