15 dollars a hour?

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Originally Posted By: dishdude
Originally Posted By: hatt
I meant the guys who come around and collect the tumbleweeds. But serious. Almost everything you buy is associated with cheap labor somewhere. When you cut out all, or all that's possible, the low paid labor then you can lecture.


We all enjoy cheap labor, but in reality it hurts the overall economy, the country and all of us in the end.


Only in dreamville or to those who have no clue about the fundamentals of economics.
 
Originally Posted By: eljefino
Imagine if society was full of people making at least $15 an hour. Just imagine what they would do for your business... buy from it.


They aren't going to put any money in the bank, they are going to spend it....at someones business. This is the logic behind tax cuts, give them money and they spend it, money goes around and stimulates the economy.

I see a lot of selfish people here - I have my money and you're not going to get any of it.
 
Originally Posted By: Silk
Originally Posted By: eljefino
Imagine if society was full of people making at least $15 an hour. Just imagine what they would do for your business... buy from it.


They aren't going to put any money in the bank, they are going to spend it....at someones business. This is the logic behind tax cuts, give them money and they spend it, money goes around and stimulates the economy.

I see a lot of selfish people here - I have my money and you're not going to get any of it.


Then why not make the minimum wage $20/hr? Or $30...or $50?
 
Originally Posted By: BTW

Then why not make the minimum wage $20/hr? Or $30...or $50?


The speed limit by my house is 25. Why not 35, 45 or 105?
 
Originally Posted By: dishdude
Originally Posted By: BTW

Then why not make the minimum wage $20/hr? Or $30...or $50?


The speed limit by my house is 25. Why not 35, 45 or 105?


So road safety and macroeconomics are analogous in your world?
 
The problem is if the minimum wage goes up to $15, then the guy who worked 20 years to get $20 an hour will want a big raise. His boss, will, too. And so forth. And the costs get passed onto the consumer, and they need raises, too, to keep up. The lowest person on the totem pole is still the lowest person on the totem pole, regardless of whether minimum wage is $100 an hour or $1 an hour. By the same token, if you calculate the value of "the world" and take everything away from everyone and redistribute it in equal share to everyone in the world, in a very short period of time, we'll have rich people and poor people all over again, elites and downtrodden.

If they raised the minimum wage to $15 up here (we're at $10.20 now), I'd simply fire my least productive worker to compensate, and make everyone else work harder. I'm not taking a pay cut to keep my business's bottom line where I want it to compensate for wage increases.
 
Originally Posted By: BTW
Originally Posted By: dishdude
Originally Posted By: BTW

Then why not make the minimum wage $20/hr? Or $30...or $50?


The speed limit by my house is 25. Why not 35, 45 or 105?


So road safety and macroeconomics are analogous in your world?


Slippery slope argument applies equally to both.
 
Requiring a “living wage” makes as much sense as requiring everyone to eat out twice a week, visit the local zoo each year, buy each new iphone, replace their computers every year, and buy a new car every four years. Society determines the value of things. The phrase “living wage” is no more than a clever term to deceive. There is no clear definition of what a “living wage” is, and any attempt define it will be fraught with the same problems as setting a minimum wage. Like it or not, society ultimately determines the value of things. And being alive doesn't make one deserving of a “living anything”. In the real world, one needs to earn their living. And it may require more than 40 hours of work per week to do so.
 
Originally Posted By: BTW
Then why not make the minimum wage $20/hr? Or $30...or $50?


Because then it's not a minimum wage anymore, unless everyone elses moves up too.
 
Originally Posted By: dishdude
Put me in the camp of raising the minimum wage to a reasonable living wage, with an automatic annual adjustment for inflation. It's entertaining to hear people pound their chest and say get a job. Then tell the folks making minimum wage to get a better job...

People deserve the dignity of a job that pays enough to put a roof over their head in exchange for 40 hours of their life each week.


I agree. The biggest problem is our good paying jobs are in China right now. We used to have mfg jobs, warehouse jobs, etc. that paid decent. Due to supply and demand, wages have taken a dive. Too many people looking for work+not enough jobs= low wages.
 
Originally Posted By: Nate1979

Only in dreamville or to those who have no clue about the fundamentals of economics.

That's pretty much it. That pretty much includes many politicians

Originally Posted By: hatt
Since we're going to ignore all known economic principles why doesn't the government just give everyone s million $ a year so we can all be rich?

Yep

Originally Posted By: BigD1

Yup all they care about is ME ME...lots of that going on in this thread.

When you run out of discussion material. Play the hate card


Originally Posted By: dishdude

People deserve the dignity of a job that pays enough to put a roof over their head in exchange for 40 hours of their life each week.


lol. You don't "deserve" anything in life. You make decisions with respect to what you "want" out of life. I can't believe some people actually believe this.


Quote:
The speed limit by my house is 25. Why not 35, 45 or 105?

Another example of deflection by diversion. A tactic of defence lawyers. hoping to make points on jurists with weak minds.

Originally Posted By: BTW
Originally Posted By: dishdude
The speed limit by my house is 25. Why not 35, 45 or 105?


So road safety and macroeconomics are analogous in your world?


lol. You will never be picked for a jury. You don't have a weak mind
 
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Originally Posted By: Garak
If they raised the minimum wage to $15 up here (we're at $10.20 now), I'd simply fire my least productive worker to compensate, and make everyone else work harder. I'm not taking a pay cut to keep my business's bottom line where I want it to compensate for wage increases.


Just out of curiosity, do you know who your least productive worker is ?
grin2.gif
 
Quote:
Im all for ensuring that all sorts of low skill jobs can be available and not automated. While automation innovations can be good, there still is a segment of the population that's below average... And its about half the population. And they have to exist, and they have to do something, and they probably should be prevented from dying in the streets... But it doesn't mean they should have the best of anything... But last I checked, $15/hr sure doesn't get that. Heck, $30/hr is only a $60k/year job and it sure doesn't get you the best of everything either.


$25-30 an hour with:

What is the company gave this person....
Retirement, vacations, 12 paid holidays, 1 week paid 'personal business' (doesn't count against vacation/sick pay), dental/health/life insurance, $10K yearly tuition reimbursement, paid training, 160 hours of sick pay, regular over time, ...etc... makes that full-time employee very expensive.
 
When did this come about where EVERY job had to be a LIVING WAGE? Plenty of people work part time to have extra money while in high school/college, during the day while the kids are in school, when they retire, and so on.
 
Originally Posted By: Silverado12
Originally Posted By: dishdude
Put me in the camp of raising the minimum wage to a reasonable living wage, with an automatic annual adjustment for inflation. It's entertaining to hear people pound their chest and say get a job. Then tell the folks making minimum wage to get a better job...

People deserve the dignity of a job that pays enough to put a roof over their head in exchange for 40 hours of their life each week.


I agree. The biggest problem is our good paying jobs are in China right now. We used to have mfg jobs, warehouse jobs, etc. that paid decent. Due to supply and demand, wages have taken a dive. Too many people looking for work+not enough jobs= low wages.


So true. This is something I have said for a long time. WE have done this to ourselves. Every person complaining about only having a minimum wage job to feed their family, then going to shop at Walmart because they deserve TVs and trinkets like everyone else is absurd. Because that is how people are defining "living wage" these days. Enabled by the garbage they can buy for minimal money, power by the third world off shored jobs that they enabled.
 
Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
Quote:
Im all for ensuring that all sorts of low skill jobs can be available and not automated. While automation innovations can be good, there still is a segment of the population that's below average... And its about half the population. And they have to exist, and they have to do something, and they probably should be prevented from dying in the streets... But it doesn't mean they should have the best of anything... But last I checked, $15/hr sure doesn't get that. Heck, $30/hr is only a $60k/year job and it sure doesn't get you the best of everything either.


$25-30 an hour with:

What is the company gave this person....
Retirement, vacations, 12 paid holidays, 1 week paid 'personal business' (doesn't count against vacation/sick pay), dental/health/life insurance, $10K yearly tuition reimbursement, paid training, 160 hours of sick pay, regular over time, ...etc... makes that full-time employee very expensive.



And? While that's nice, the fact that that employee is "very expensive" from a burdened man-year perspective is a calculated decision to get a worthy candidate.

It doesn't change the fact that at $30/hr,,someone earning $60k/ year isn't going to be able to (smartly) afford the absolute best in everything. They're not buying new Mercedes cars and summering in "the Vineyard" so to speak. That was my point.

But you bring up another good point that people who are "just employees" don't necessarily get. That $30/hr job, when you consider the payroll taxes the company has to pay, healthcare, vacation and sick time that is paid, etc., etc, likely creates a burdened rate that is double what is paid out. In other words, that $30/hr employee is likely costing the business $60/hr in true total cost, and as such, the employee needs to generate that much revenue.

It's no different when we talk minimum wage. It may be $7.50 higher wage, for,example, but other overhead/burdened costs increase proportionately, making the actual cost to the business even higher.
 
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Just out of curiosity, do you know who your least productive worker is ?
grin2.gif


There's a tie between two of them. I could split the difference by getting rid of both!
whistle.gif
 
Originally Posted By: hatt
When did this come about where EVERY job had to be a LIVING WAGE? Plenty of people work part time to have extra money while in high school/college, during the day while the kids are in school, when they retire, and so on.


They'd be undercutting someone who actually needs that job. I don't in the slightest way imagine the clerk at Dollar Tree is doing just fine but wearing that green shirt for some extra pin money.
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Silverado12
Originally Posted By: dishdude
Put me in the camp of raising the minimum wage to a reasonable living wage, with an automatic annual adjustment for inflation. It's entertaining to hear people pound their chest and say get a job. Then tell the folks making minimum wage to get a better job...

People deserve the dignity of a job that pays enough to put a roof over their head in exchange for 40 hours of their life each week.


I agree. The biggest problem is our good paying jobs are in China right now. We used to have mfg jobs, warehouse jobs, etc. that paid decent. Due to supply and demand, wages have taken a dive. Too many people looking for work+not enough jobs= low wages.


So true. This is something I have said for a long time. WE have done this to ourselves. Every person complaining about only having a minimum wage job to feed their family, then going to shop at Walmart because they deserve TVs and trinkets like everyone else is absurd. Because that is how people are defining "living wage" these days. Enabled by the garbage they can buy for minimal money, power by the third world off shored jobs that they enabled.


When 90% of one's income is gobbled by "essentials" like food, rent, and healthcare, the trinkets they buy for their few hours of amusement per week are a smallish piece of the puzzle. A person standing up fogging windows has a price for his existence. He has to pay real estate taxes for kids to go to school and health insurance as he has the same odds of falling ill a a rich guy. It's not unreasonable to expect he can meet those most basic needs by doing "anything" 40 hours a week.
 
Originally Posted By: eljefino


When 90% of one's income is gobbled by "essentials" like food, rent, and healthcare, the trinkets they buy for their few hours of amusement per week are a smallish piece of the puzzle. A person standing up fogging windows has a price for his existence. He has to pay real estate taxes for kids to go to school and health insurance as he has the same odds of falling ill a a rich guy. It's not unreasonable to expect he can meet those most basic needs by doing "anything" 40 hours a week.
Trinkets add up. Most of these people spend $100s/month on cell phones, cable, Netflix, McDs, Yoohoos, chips, etc.

You hear about the people getting $900 a month in food stamps and go hungry. All bad choices. Raising the minimum wage isn't going to do anything for people who make bad decision after bad decision. Some people can live well on $25K/yr. Some people, like athletes, can't live well on $100,000,000.
 
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