15 dollars a hour?

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Turns out that your predictions about the life of this thread were as mistaken as were your assumptions about the motivations of those who work in low-paid jobs.
Nobody accepts low wages because they want to and it may be time that we as a society collectively reject business models built on the backs of systematically underpaid workers.
If those of us who choose to patronize national fast food chains have to pay a little more as a consequence, then so be it.
We live in a managed economy to begin with and have since before the founding of the republic.
It's time for many of us to let go of the free-market capitalist mythos.
 
Originally Posted By: Win
Originally Posted By: eljefino


When 90% of one's income is gobbled by "essentials" like food, rent, and healthcare, the trinkets they buy for their few hours of amusement per week are a smallish piece of the puzzle. A person standing up fogging windows has a price for his existence.


When interest rates went down, the price of real estate went up to absorb the extra money.

Why do you think someone making a minimum wage of $15 / hour will not be paying 90% of that for essentials? If I rent apartments, do you think I will rent them for the same price when I know people can pay a lot more than they could? Why would I? If i need to fix them or replace them, it's going to cost me more money than it did.



If you rent apartments you should be STOKED if wages go up. You've got a mortgage and the price you paid for your property locked in. Any increases in rents you can finagle you can put on your books and show prospective buyers, and you'll have nearly instant equity.

Since I assume the skilled tradespeople who fix your apartments are paid way higher than minimum wage, your expenses won't jump up as quickly as the rents you'd be able to make.

And if a pair of roommates separates and each gets their own place, that could be double the money for you as well as helping your town's occupancy percentage, which will lift rents as a whole.
 
Originally Posted By: eljefino
Originally Posted By: Win
Originally Posted By: eljefino


When 90% of one's income is gobbled by "essentials" like food, rent, and healthcare, the trinkets they buy for their few hours of amusement per week are a smallish piece of the puzzle. A person standing up fogging windows has a price for his existence.


When interest rates went down, the price of real estate went up to absorb the extra money.

Why do you think someone making a minimum wage of $15 / hour will not be paying 90% of that for essentials? If I rent apartments, do you think I will rent them for the same price when I know people can pay a lot more than they could? Why would I? If i need to fix them or replace them, it's going to cost me more money than it did.



If you rent apartments you should be STOKED if wages go up. You've got a mortgage and the price you paid for your property locked in. Any increases in rents you can finagle you can put on your books and show prospective buyers, and you'll have nearly instant equity.

Since I assume the skilled tradespeople who fix your apartments are paid way higher than minimum wage, your expenses won't jump up as quickly as the rents you'd be able to make.

And if a pair of roommates separates and each gets their own place, that could be double the money for you as well as helping your town's occupancy percentage, which will lift rents as a whole.


Why do you think I said it won't be the poor that benefit from this wealth transfer ?
 
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Turns out that your predictions about the life of this thread were as mistaken as were your assumptions about the motivations of those who work in low-paid jobs.
Nobody accepts low wages because they want to and it may be time that we as a society collectively reject business models built on the backs of systematically underpaid workers.
If those of us who choose to patronize national fast food chains have to pay a little more as a consequence, then so be it.
We live in a managed economy to begin with and have since before the founding of the republic.
It's time for many of us to let go of the free-market capitalist mythos.


There are so many flaws in your post, I don't no where to begin...
 
Originally Posted By: Win


Why do you think I said it won't be the poor that benefit from this wealth transfer ?


I agree, nearly everyone wins!

I'd be happier if rents went up because working people made more. My first apartment (to go with my first job) was so cheap my landlady also took Section 8.
 
Originally Posted By: BTW
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Turns out that your predictions about the life of this thread were as mistaken as were your assumptions about the motivations of those who work in low-paid jobs.
Nobody accepts low wages because they want to and it may be time that we as a society collectively reject business models built on the backs of systematically underpaid workers.
If those of us who choose to patronize national fast food chains have to pay a little more as a consequence, then so be it.
We live in a managed economy to begin with and have since before the founding of the republic.
It's time for many of us to let go of the free-market capitalist mythos.


There are so many flaws in your post, I don't no where to begin...


I somewhat agree with fdcg27. There are a whole bunch of honest hard working people whose lives would be significantly improved with a minimum wage.
 
How difficult can employees unionize to include fast food / retail employees ?
Basically if the lower paid workers wanted to unionize for better wages/benefits ....

What has prevented them from doing so ?
 
Originally Posted By: eljefino
Originally Posted By: Win


Why do you think I said it won't be the poor that benefit from this wealth transfer ?


I agree, nearly everyone wins!

I'd be happier if rents went up because working people made more. My first apartment (to go with my first job) was so cheap my landlady also took Section 8.


Well, I would say nearly everyone loses, since everything will cost more. But if you are in a class of business where you have no real labor costs and can jack your prices up considerably to soak up the new money, one will make out like a bandit.

I am at a complete loss as to how this would benefit poor people ( edit: or most middle class people ) in any meaningful way, and it seems kind of cruel that is being promoted as something that will help them, when it likely will not.
 
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Maybe they should make it $30/hr. I mean, why only $15? Maybe we should all make a million a year and we could all be rich?
 
Originally Posted By: eljefino
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Silverado12
Originally Posted By: dishdude
Put me in the camp of raising the minimum wage to a reasonable living wage, with an automatic annual adjustment for inflation. It's entertaining to hear people pound their chest and say get a job. Then tell the folks making minimum wage to get a better job...

People deserve the dignity of a job that pays enough to put a roof over their head in exchange for 40 hours of their life each week.


I agree. The biggest problem is our good paying jobs are in China right now. We used to have mfg jobs, warehouse jobs, etc. that paid decent. Due to supply and demand, wages have taken a dive. Too many people looking for work+not enough jobs= low wages.


So true. This is something I have said for a long time. WE have done this to ourselves. Every person complaining about only having a minimum wage job to feed their family, then going to shop at Walmart because they deserve TVs and trinkets like everyone else is absurd. Because that is how people are defining "living wage" these days. Enabled by the garbage they can buy for minimal money, power by the third world off shored jobs that they enabled.


When 90% of one's income is gobbled by "essentials" like food, rent, and healthcare, the trinkets they buy for their few hours of amusement per week are a smallish piece of the puzzle. A person standing up fogging windows has a price for his existence. He has to pay real estate taxes for kids to go to school and health insurance as he has the same odds of falling ill a a rich guy. It's not unreasonable to expect he can meet those most basic needs by doing "anything" 40 hours a week.


If one's wages are gobbled up at the 90% rate, then they have a living wage. "Living wage" never meant iPhones and cable TVs and other niceties that the I deserve mantra recommends.

That's part of the issue. $15/hr is not one size fits all, and it may well vary by location. So how do we define a modern living wage? A chicken in every pot? Two cars in every driveway? Smartphones in every pocket?
 
Originally Posted By: Benito
Originally Posted By: BTW
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Turns out that your predictions about the life of this thread were as mistaken as were your assumptions about the motivations of those who work in low-paid jobs.
Nobody accepts low wages because they want to and it may be time that we as a society collectively reject business models built on the backs of systematically underpaid workers.
If those of us who choose to patronize national fast food chains have to pay a little more as a consequence, then so be it.
We live in a managed economy to begin with and have since before the founding of the republic.
It's time for many of us to let go of the free-market capitalist mythos.


There are so many flaws in your post, I don't no where to begin...


I somewhat agree with fdcg27. There are a whole bunch of honest hard working people whose lives would be significantly improved with a minimum wage.


That might be fine if we had the following:

1) everyone receiving this so-called living wage would be completely off of any and all government handout programs. That's the definition of living wage, right? No obamacare subsidies, no section 8, no food stamps, win, etc.

2) the reduced outlay of public funds from this would be paid directly against the public debt.

3) an assurance that any subsequent loss of jobs is not covered by expanded or lengthened handouts in the form of unemployment insurance from the public dole.

Why do I doubt this would happen?
 
Well that's the problem, you have people working full time and still on government assistance, so instead of paying their salary through the services you're consuming, we're all paying it through taxes.

And yes things might cost a little more, but to me that's the true price of the service. If you have to take advantage of someone's labor to achieve a certain price, that isn't the true cost of goods sold.
 
Having worked and managed in fast food I know that it is not as easy as people realize. I'm talking about to do the job correctly and actually want your customer base to return. People who work the drive through have to multi-task. Cashiers have to deal with a customer base who treat you like you are an idiot. It's also a myth that only teenagers work at fast food joints. Today's high school students do not want to work, period.
 
Originally Posted By: dareo
Fast food usually runs 20 to 30 % labor to sales. So if you double 7.25 to 14.50 you need to increase sales by at least that 30%.

When I go to one of the TWO McDs in immediate walking distance to my store it is for a very cheap $4 average ticket. If i want to spend $8 on lunch i buy from the awesome little thai restaurant.


You don't have to increase sales, you just increase prices. If your labor cost is 30% of the product price, then a $4 ticket is $1.20 in labor. Double that and now you're at $2.40. So now your $4 ticket is $5.20, not $8. Your Thai place will probably have to follow suit and your $8 alternative won't be there. Also it might not be a $1.20 increase because in theory once you're paying $15, you can be more selective or turnover will be much lower yielding a more efficient workforce.

Remember, it was Henry Ford that started paying workers a lot more and they were then able to afford the products he was selling. Similarity with workers collecting government benefits, you're actually subsidizing the cost of that $4 ticket with your taxes whether you want to or not. Minimum wage actually hasn't kept pace with inflation, had it been indexed to inflation, we probably wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Originally Posted By: eljefino
If you rent apartments you should be STOKED if wages go up. You've got a mortgage and the price you paid for your property locked in. Any increases in rents you can finagle you can put on your books and show prospective buyers, and you'll have nearly instant equity.


I do rent apartments and you're clueless as how the rents are set. It's based on supply and demand, that's why in one area of the city you can command 2k rents on a one bedroom and in other cities they're $600. Has nothing to do with wages. Set the rent too high and no one will rent your apartment. Doesn't matter if they make more or less, there will be other apartments that they can rent at a lower price.

Originally Posted By: 3800Series
I haven't seen anyone mention savings yet. How are young family's who cut costs and have a savings going to feel when over night their $10-$15k it took them 7 years to save up for a new car, down payment for a new home, or child's college find is instantly worth 35% less.


Probably because this is meaningless and not reality. Do your really think that Bill Gates or Warren Buffet will instantly be worth 35% less if minimum wages go to $15/hr? Did you know that if you had placed your money in the S&P 500 in 2013, you would have gotten a 32% return that year?

The sky will not fall and the economy will not collapse if wages go to $15/hr.
 
We do not have a democracy when a few hundred disgruntled workers demand $15/hr with picket signs and yell the loudest. A bureaucrat can force private companies (specifically the fast food industry) to give workers a 50% raise to appease those unwilling to seek higher wages on their own? This is mob rule... thug government at work. If I were McDonald's I would sue NY state for discrimination. Inquiring minds would like to know if Cuomo will also set the minimum wage for EMTs to $15/hr since I know some EMTs make less than $15/hr? Janitors? Electricians? Laborers? Landscapers?
 
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Why are people complaining about a $15 an hour wage? I feel bad for those of you who think this will destroy the U.S.. It will take people off the "welfare". The SNAP food card, Medicaid, TANF, ect....Those who make minimum wage qualify and take all these benefits.
 
GMfan, how about you go "undercover" and get a job at Burger King for 3 months? I'm grateful to be working beyond fast food but you are the exact type of customer I hated serving fries to.
 
Originally Posted By: BTW
I'm bowing out of commenting further in this thread, i'll leave you with this...

1.100 food service jobs have left Seattle


This is categorically false--but don't let facts actually get in the way. Unemployment in Seattle has declined at roughly the same rate as the national average--and the idea that restaurant job losses are overwhelmingly due to the minimum wage increase is infantile. It's also not true: http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news...-owners-say-no/

There are 4 restaurants within 4 blocks of my house that have closed since the minimum wage increased. In every single instance the reason they left was exactly the same: their rent was increasing to a level which they couldn't afford. Anywhere from a 100-400% increase. New, more expensive restaurants have/will take their place. I imagine w/the rents in SF the situation is even worse.

You can believe the obfuscated lies you're being fed, and that's cool-but when you're posting them as "fact", expect to get called on it.
 
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