12% are paying $1,000+ a month for car loans ...

I understand the concept of trying to compare vehicle prices from one era to the next and saying the price of everything has risen...

Another way to look at it is what if you got the actual same performance, features (or lack of them) and technology used in 1987 in a 2021 model - how would the prices compare?

The product in 2021 isn't just a new version of the car, its the car with significant performance improvements, safety improvements, etc... along with convenience type features. As an example, the audio system in 1987 was just that - now its expected to sync with your phone, run two different systems (apple or google), etc...

On the performance side, you are comparing a 225hp V8 vs a 460 hp V8 stock from the factory - with the performance improvements one would expect too...

That would be the legitimate apples to apples comparison (though really tough to do...)
Unfortunately not really any true performance has been gained though to justify the cost. My 1990 Mustang LX Conv. 5.0l was $20k new. It had 6-7sec 0-60mph and it had a top speed of 140mph. Today's may have double the hp but the top speed is now 15mph more and 0-60 is what 2 seconds faster for double plus the cost? Fuel efficiency is not much better either hwy was 22mpg then and now 24mpgs. What we are paying for is numbers and ego. My 90 had ac, cruise, airbags, abs, power window and seats, leather, tape deck 😍 radio w 6speakers and 15" rims. Nothing is really any better today except touchscreens, 18-20" rims, complicated electronics and hefty price tag.
Heck my 92 Cutlass will get 30mpgs on the hwy if I baby it- 3.1l v6 w modest 150ish hp. Everything has grown into more but complicated vehicles that are impressive on paper and cost way too much.

Hp then was 225hp and 300ft lbs torque, not bad for a 32 yr old V8.
 
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My 1990 Mustang LX Conv. 5.0l was $20k new. It had 6-7sec 0-60mph and it had a top speed of 140mph. Today's may have double the hp but the top speed is now 15mph more and 0-60 is what 2 seconds faster for double plus the cost?
0-60 mph, and especially top speed performance doesn't correlate linearly to HP.
 
You can't do that though, nobody made a 460HP factory V8 in 1987. 225HP was very good for the time period and slots in where the 460HP does currently. Cars evolve, technology evolves a Mustang GT is still a Mustang GT and has evolved just like every other model.

This is like comparing an 8088 to a current i7 and being like "well, what if you had an 8Mhz CPU with 640KB of RAM today in a 2021 computer, how would the prices compare?" It's a preposterous proposition.

So the concept is that that technological progress costs nothing? Ie: the 460hp V8 is the same as the 225hp V8 in that they are both V8's, and thus should cost the same?

The use of advanced materials, advanced electronics, mandated safety features (which aren't free), and consumer demanded convenience items shouldn't be considered?
 
A lot of the cost is in creature comforts that I typically don't care about such as 19" wheels, heated and ventilated leather seats, touchscreen audio, overengineered climate control, automatic high beams, Apple/Android app paring, 8-10 speakers, adaptive cruise control, electric power steering, rpm matching, etc... plus all the dead weight of the wiring for all this junk. If they sold a stripped down model of a new Mustang GT, keeping the 5.0L and 6-speed manual, with simple cloth bucket seats, a simple radio, and manual everything (I'd even take manual windows) at ~$8k less and 300-400 lbs lighter, I'd be all over it like white on rice. It's a performance car that I would intend to drive like a performance car. If I wanted all of the creature comforts, I'd buy a Cadillac.

Of course, that'll never happen. I'll have to settle for waiting for some kid to wrap his $50k around a tree and get the engine and trans to swap in a fox body.
This ^^^^^^^^^

Cars cost more because they're packed with non essential, expensive crap. Like what you just mentioned. "Back in the day", a car was considered "loaded" if it had a radio, heater, and whitewall tires. Things like air conditioning, power windows, and cruise control were high priced extra cost options. They weren't even available on many standard models.

Even automatic transmissions were not "standard". They were an extra cost option..... As was power steering and brakes. Even an FM radio cost additional.

Today's cars are packed full of this kind of expensive stuff that runs the price up. Today they have things that didn't even exist like lane departure and navigation.

Housing is much the same. Most families in the 60's lived in houses that were 1,500 sq. ft. or smaller. Today people won't even look at a house like that. Unless they're retired. If they have a family they "need" 2,500 to 3,000 sq. ft.

So yeah, this stuff all costs more..... Because people are buying more. Far more than they need.

We've become victims of our own creation. We have become a nation of "wants", far more than a nation of "needs". And we're paying the price for that by borrowing money we don't have, in large amounts to do it.

And the problem is that price has become more than many can actually afford. So, in order to compensate many people, (but not all), put themselves into a precarious financial position to do so.

Today you have to move the comma over another digit. And all you get is more crap.... Along with bigger and longer lasting payments. Not much else has changed. The people who actually bought that car for under $3K in 1973, we're all just as happy, if not happier, as the ones today who pay 10 times as much for a Camry.

I know because I've lived long enough to do both.



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So the concept is that that technological progress costs nothing? Ie: the 460hp V8 is the same as the 225hp V8 in that they are both V8's, and thus should cost the same?
They are mass produced engines, so the short answer is yes. The current 5.0L is the commodity engine that the Windsor was in the 1980's.
The use of advanced materials, advanced electronics, mandated safety features (which aren't free), and consumer demanded convenience items shouldn't be considered?
As I said, everything evolves. Electronics are cheap. The ECM in the 80's Fords was "cutting edge" at the time but had far less processing power than what you'd find in a cheap throwaway tablet now. The engines in the 80's Mustangs were hand assembled and hand balanced. Each rod, cap and piston was ground for weight and balance and numbered. Pistons and rods were both forged. Engines now are put together with bulk produced powdered metal rods and hypereutectic pistons that come out of pre-sized bins. There is also a ton of automation. Ford famously mastered the art of press-on lobes on the camshafts with the Modular to get away from individually cut ones.

Mandated safety features? Well, the $16K KIA Rio has to have all of those too.

Consumer demanded convenience items? These are mass produced, typically common across all products within a brand and, as I noted, electronics are cheap. Look at how much an aftermarket Android Auto/Apple CarPlay head unit costs right now on Crutchfield, a brand-name unit is $350.00 with a 6.75" screen, a decade ago you were paying more than that for a single DIN HU with calculator text and some graphics that played MP3's.

Furthermore, all the cost of these advancements were borne by the luxury marques and their premium products long before they ended up on your 2022 Mustang. Check the options available on a 2000 Mercedes or BMW if you want affirmation of that. This stuff is all commodity now, having matured for over 20 years in the luxo-barges, AMG's and ///M cars, trickling down to the pedestrian econoboxes.
 
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This ^^^^^^^^^

Cars cost more because they're packed with non essential, expensive crap. Like what you just mentioned. "Back in the day", a car was considered "loaded" if it had a radio, heater, and whitewall tires. Things like air conditioning, power windows, and cruise control were high priced extra cost options. They weren't even available on many standard models.
I gave some very specific examples from the 80's vs now. We could go back to the horse and buggy if you want, but that's going to be a bit of an unnecessary detour. How about working with the examples I provided?
Even automatic transmissions were not "standard". They were an extra cost option..... As was power steering and brakes. Even an FM radio cost additional.
Sure, if we go back far enough. Again, let's deal with the examples as I've given them instead of trying to build a strawman about "back in the day we walked in 20 feet of snow, uphill both ways, then came home, hand-cranked a tractor and liked it because that's the way things were. Then we threw a cow on our backs, took it into the kitchen, milked it on the table, and drank milk straight from the udder. Then we went and shovelled 14 tons of coal to heat the shack for the night."
Today's cars are packed full of this kind of expensive stuff that runs the price up. Today they have things that didn't even exist like lane departure and navigation.
And those things are optional today (lane departure and navigation). Again, I provided a couple of very specific examples, let's look at the RAM 2500 one, with crank windows, manual locks, manual seats, no navigation...etc. It's more than double the inflation-adjusted price for its mid-80's equivalent.
Housing is much the same. Most families in the 60's lived in houses that were 1,500 sq. ft. or smaller. Today people won't even look at a house like that. Unless they're retired. If they have a family they "need" 2,500 to 3,000 sq. ft.
I again, gave a very specific example of the house I grew up in that was purchased for ~$60K and is now worth 800K. My sister owns a bungalow similar to what you are describing, it's worth $550K and she paid $425K for it. So no, housing is not "much the same". Have you actually looked at the prices of houses in many markets lately, for the type of house you are describing?
So yeah, this stuff all costs more..... Because people are buying more. Far more than they need.
That sounds like condescending judgement rather than empirical data. While consumerism is definitely a problem, both housing and transportation have become significantly more expensive, and well beyond the inflationary effect.
We've become victims of our own creation. We have become a nation of "wants", far more than a nation of "needs". And we're paying the price for that by borrowing money we don't have, in large amounts to do it.
I think we can both agree that transportation and lodging are both "needs". Yes, Walmart, Amazon...etc all cater to consumerism (the "want") but that doesn't mean there isn't a separate and very valid discussion to be had about the examples I've provided on both housing and transport.
And the problem is that price has become more than many can actually afford. So, in order to compensate many people, (but not all), put themselves into a precarious financial position to do so.

Today you have to move the comma over another digit. And all you get is more crap.... Along with bigger and longer lasting payments. Not much else has changed. The people who actually bought that car for under $3K in 1973, we're all just as happy, if not happier, as the ones today who pay 10 times as much for a Camry.

I know because I've lived long enough to do both.



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Adjusted for inflation, that 1973 Maverick is $17,135.00. Slightly more expensive than a brand new 2022 KIA RIO. And the KIA RIO has all sorts of mandated safety features, fuel injection, TPMS...etc. Again, it's not those things driving up the price of vehicles.

Consumer buying power has changed, particularly in regards to housing and transportation. Electricity is also going up, food prices have gone up. Life has become more expensive and all of this at a rate that wage growth has not matched.

That's a separate discussion from poor consumer decisions made regarding debt, financing things they don't need and buying the latest trinket every other week.

I'd appreciate it if we could have a productive discussion on those things, but if this is going to devolve into more whataboutisms, I'm going to cut my losses.
 
As a point of reference, in 1989 I bought a VCR for $250. It was a Montgomery Ward branded Sharp mono VCR.

EDIT: I bought it with my paper route money back when I was 12. Now you can figure out how old I am...

How much were VCRs going for when they finally stopped making them? I think you could have gotten one for about $50.

I'd love to know what the list price on the Panasonic cassette stereo in my 1984 Cavalier was. That was purchased in 1984, it's a Bantam "Hypertuner". I'd bet it was at least $300, if not $400 (not adjusted for inflation).

Here you can get a NOS one for $227:

http://www.jackbergsales.com/electr...toReverseCassetteDeckwithElectronicTuning.htm
 
As a point of reference, in 1989 I bought a VCR for $250. It was a Montgomery Ward branded Sharp mono VCR.

EDIT: I bought it with my paper route money back when I was 12. Now you can figure out how old I am...

How much were VCRs going for when they finally stopped making them? I think you could have gotten one for about $50.

I'd love to know what the list price on the Panasonic cassette stereo in my 1984 Cavalier was. That was purchased in 1984, it's a Bantam "Hypertuner". I'd bet it was at least $300, if not $400 (not adjusted for inflation).

Here you can get a NOS one for $227:

http://www.jackbergsales.com/electr...toReverseCassetteDeckwithElectronicTuning.htm
Yup! On our '89 Town Car there was an optional CD player, that was a very expensive option (which we didn't have).
 
That's crazy but I can see it. There's a lot of people who just have to have a brand new high end cowboy cadillac pickup. It's a lifestyle. And for most , when a Nissan Versa will suffice, they chose the Lexus SUV for no other reason than ride height and to keep up with the Jones. There are cheap, new cars ... financing is too easy to get so everyone goes way higher in the market than they should.

In our driveway we have three 20 year old vehicles and a 2019 Nissan Sentra on lease. Because the lease deal made way more sense than anything. Now, it's going to make sense to just cut a check at the end of the lease. It's the base model, but does everything we need out of it. Reliable and good gas mileage.

I just had to put an engine in my 2001 Grand Marquis. My 2001 F-350 is getting closer and closer to needing the head gasket replaced. There are times when I'm working on these miserable Fords that I start to think having a car payment isn't that bad.

Once my other house is sold, I'll be looking pretty good on monthly bills. I have a problem spending money; the more I have and the less I have in the form of bills - the harder it is for me to spend money. I'll really like having half of a $1000 mortgage, a few student loans and no car payment or credit card debt!

I'm okay living a simple lifestyle. If someone takes offense to what I drive, they're more than welcome to buy me something nice.
 
Yup! On our '89 Town Car there was an optional CD player, that was a very expensive option (which we didn't have).

Around that same time (1989/1990), there was a Sears Outlet store around here. They had a Sears LXI CD Player (component) for $39 which was a heck of a deal back then. Another $20 at a yard sale got me a Magnavox AM/FM/Phono/8 track unit with 2 speakers and an aux input, for a grand total of $59 I could play CDs.

The LXI cd player was obviously value-engineered to the max, but it worked for several years, and probably would have kept working for a lot longer had I not taken it apart...but that's another story.
 
Around that same time (1989/1990), there was a Sears Outlet store around here. They had a Sears LXI CD Player (component) for $39 which was a heck of a deal back then. Another $20 at a yard sale got me a Magnavox AM/FM/Phono/8 track unit with 2 speakers and an aux input, for a grand total of $59 I could play CDs.

The LXI cd player was obviously value-engineered to the max, but it worked for several years, and probably would have kept working for a lot longer had I not taken it apart...but that's another story.
I took everything apart, lol, I hear you on that.

One of my best memories from my childhood was completely buggering up my dad's 8088, which he used for work, and spending all night fixing it so he had no idea I had screwed it up. That was my segue into IT, started when I was about 8, lol.
 
....... There's a lot of people who just have to have a brand new high end cowboy cadillac pickup. It's a lifestyle. And for most , when a Nissan Versa will suffice, they chose the Lexus SUV for no other reason than ride height and to keep up with the Jones. There are cheap, new cars ... financing is too easy to get so everyone goes way higher in the market than they should.......

I'm okay living a simple lifestyle. If someone takes offense to what I drive, they're more than welcome to buy me something nice.
I'm the same way. There is no way I would buy a new car today if I were starting out, like I was in the 70's. The way cars are built today, they can easily go 200,000+ miles with just a bit of TLC.

Back in the 70's you would brag at the bar if you made it to 100,000 miles without pulling the heads for a valve job. And if you drove by a lake, they would rust. Fast forward to today, and that's when you first get around to changing the coolant and spark plugs.

And with all of the composite material and Stainless Steel used in them, rust and corrosion is much less of a worry today. There are a lot of good buys out there in the used car market, that simply didn't exist back then.

Perhaps not right this minute. But that's because everything is turned upside down price wise at the moment. With all of this supply chain nonsense, along with the big Covid scare. That's not going to last. It never does. Houses right now are even worse. The prices are all going sky high, but not the value.

You can't go by current prices on real estate and new vehicles. For example, the house we're living in now we bought just 3 years ago. Today the price on it has over doubled. That's insane. It's a 30 year old 1,500 sq. ft. home. And no one is going to tell me it's actually worth over double what it sold for just 36 months ago.

The price may dictate that, but certainly not the value. It simply isn't there. It's the exact same pile of boards, concrete, and shingles it was just 36 months ago. And building materials have not gone up anywhere near that amount. In fact, now material prices are falling.

But with that said, people are lining up to buy them. Someone is going to be taking the gas pipe big time before all of this silliness ends. New cars are much the same at this point in time.

They're selling for above sticker price in many places. Someone is writing loans on these expensive piles of nuts and bolts. And mortgages on these overpriced houses. It's getting to be like a big game of musical chairs out there. When the music stops, you better have a place to sit down.... Or you're out of the game. Dangerous times for sure.
 
Apparently the average car payment is $700/month for new cars. Interesting drop to only 12% take $1000+.

The average means people are borrowing $40k for 72 months . car makers figured out $40k is for average people.
 
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