12% are paying $1,000+ a month for car loans ...

But looking at what you can afford w/r to a payment per month is part of it. The part that is left out is the total cost over the life/OTD total price and the depreciation/staying ahead of it. I always figured that at any time I could sell my vehicle and walk away with some cash in hand and that was my contingency if I got in a pinch. I did just that when I was younger and we had our first child; I had a '00 Jeep Cherokee I bought brand new. I made about $40K/year and my wife about $30K so $70K total household income. It was $20K, I put down 20% so borrowed $16K for 5 years and the rate was about 7% back then in 2000 so payment was about $350 if I recall, easily within our budget. Our mortgage was about $1000. When the baby was born, it was decided that she would stay at home so I lost significant income and that $350 was important. I easily sold the Jeep and walked away with enough cash to buy an older Honda Civic commuter car. It's all about planning and understanding how it all works...which clearly a large chunk of American's don't.

I know a family that's exactly that. They are a 1 income household and the husband makes good money (for Georgia) at a touch over $100k/yr, but his work is feast or famine. When work is good, income is good, they finance the crap out of everything including trucks, a boat, ATVs, and other toys. They live paycheck to paycheck essentially with tons of debt and >70% of their income gone before they even get it. Then when work is down, they're struggling to make ends meet and end up selling a lot of things to get out from under the loans. Yet, they don't learn the lesson, and as soon work picks back up, they're right back in the bank looking for more loans.
 
Lots of "I've never had a car payment" folks here - it's really not a big deal if it's as I put in my post somewhere above....20% down, no more than 5 years, get it paid off if possible, don't over extend. Reasonableness w/r to buying new/used cars and borrowing money w/r to your income isn't what the issue here is.
Just back from the post office - new SUV’s, cars, and trucks all over town like the prices don’t matter … what’s different is how many dealerships/sources I see on the front plate … The range has extended for sure …
Some are also changing brands - one our managers was a loyal Duramax buyer for years - Well, brand new F250 that he paid $90k for … another just had a new Suburban DMax shipped down from Michigan (likely a similar cost) …
Without the chip shortage? Gotta wonder …
 
Just back from the post office - new SUV’s, cars, and trucks all over town like the prices don’t matter … what’s different is how many dealerships/sources I see on the front plate … The range has extended for sure …
Some are also changing brands - one our managers was a loyal Duramax buyer for years - Well, brand new F250 that he paid $90k for … another just had a new Suburban DMax shipped down from Michigan (likely a similar cost) …
Without the chip shortage? Gotta wonder …
The fleet of your cars (listed) isn't cheap......
 
Becoming a norm and some folks are working 2 and 3 jobs to afford it sadly. New cars have too many gadgets and too complicated to operate while driving. My wife's 2018 Civic before we sold it, I couldn't even turn up the ac or radio without hitting 3 or 4 touches of the touchscreen. Close to 20 to 30 secs of looking at screen instead of the road, hated it and she always would do it for me when I drove. Give me a nob to touch and push without ever looking over at it.

All of our vehicles are paid off but we do have a small payment on our camper and 10 yrs left on our house if that. We spend our money on traveling, ink and enjoying our better second half of life. Also helping out our kids this year is a joy- gave my son some money for his house purchase earlier this yr and helping my stepson pay for his wedding. It is very nice to be able to have the cash for that. With my ex-wife we always lived paycheck to paycheck and had immense cc debt- she always spent above our means and never could save a dime. Not anymore having little debt has been such a stress relief and makes life more enjoyable.
 
What I'm seeing that has changed in this country. (And it's for the worse as far as I'm concerned). Is 50 years ago people were somewhat embarrassed to tell someone they financed a car. Because it basically showed spending beyond your means, in order to purchase a depreciating asset.

Back then that wasn't considered a very smart move financially. Today, they brag about it, and try to justify it by announcing some type of "good deal" they think they got on the interest rate.

Along with a lot of math manipulation trying to make it look better than it is. When you're paying someone else interest on an asset, that is worth 25% less by the time you get it home and into your garage, the only "good deal" that was made, was by the guy who sold it to you.

50 years ago people knew that. Hence the embarrassment. Today they don't... Or else they do and just don't care. Either way it's not an admirable position from a financial standpoint.

The end result is you have almost half the people in this country running around with all of their earned income spent before they even earn it.
 
Markets are correcting rapidly as we are typing it here; there is a saying that we’re down about 20% in past 6 months

All of these people with a high car payment bought it at the peak of markets and if they find they want to trade it in again they will soon be disappointed of how much their vehicles values have dropped down since their purchase

And if we fall into deep recession…. good luck to them; soon big spenders will find themselves at the downside of the coin while prospective buyers will get upper hand in the market
 
But looking at what you can afford w/r to a payment per month is part of it. The part that is left out is the total cost over the life/OTD total price and the depreciation/staying ahead of it. I always figured that at any time I could sell my vehicle and walk away with some cash in hand and that was my contingency if I got in a pinch. I did just that when I was younger and we had our first child; I had a '00 Jeep Cherokee I bought brand new. I made about $40K/year and my wife about $30K so $70K total household income. It was $20K, I put down 20% so borrowed $16K for 5 years and the rate was about 7% back then in 2000 so payment was about $350 if I recall, easily within our budget. Our mortgage was about $1000. When the baby was born, it was decided that she would stay at home so I lost significant income and that $350 was important. I easily sold the Jeep and walked away with enough cash to buy an older Honda Civic commuter car. It's all about planning and understanding how it all works...which clearly a large chunk of American's don't.
That's a smart way to do it, and I think there are many factors now that have changed things. Vehicles and their repairs are more expensive than they have ever been relative to the average person's salary, which leaves less room for error when planning. Many people now are $1000 away from a major financial crisis all due to poor planning.
 
That's a smart way to do it, and I think there are many factors now that have changed things. Vehicles and their repairs are more expensive than they have ever been relative to the average person's salary, which leaves less room for error when planning. Many people now are $1000 away from a major financial crisis all due to poor planning.
You do make a good point - like many things now (housing, college, vehicles) they have risen in value disproportionally vs. income.
 
Markets are correcting rapidly as we are typing it here; there is a saying that we’re down about 20% in past 6 months

All of these people with a high car payment bought it at the peak of markets and if they find they want to trade it in again they will soon be disappointed of how much their vehicles values have dropped down since their purchase

And if we fall into deep recession…. good luck to them; soon big spenders will find themselves at the downside of the coin while prospective buyers will get upper hand in the market
I sense a bubble coming for sure with a whole lot of folks WAY upside down on their vehicles.
 
What I'm seeing that has changed in this country. (And it's for the worse as far as I'm concerned). Is 50 years ago people were somewhat embarrassed to tell someone they financed a car. Because it basically showed spending beyond your means, in order to purchase a depreciating asset.

Back then that wasn't considered a very smart move financially. Today, they brag about it, and try to justify it by announcing some type of "good deal" they think they got on the interest rate.

Along with a lot of math manipulation trying to make it look better than it is. When you're paying someone else interest on an asset, that is worth 25% less by the time you get it home and into your garage, the only "good deal" that was made, was by the guy who sold it to you.

50 years ago people knew that. Hence the embarrassment. Today they don't... Or else they do and just don't care. Either way it's not an admirable position from a financial standpoint.

The end result is you have almost half the people in this country running around with all of their earned income spent before they even earn it.
Well, the other side of that is that the price of everything has risen considerably relative to then.

Even as recent as the 80's, sticker price for a Mustang GT was $12 grand:
Screen Shot 2022-10-14 at 11.33.12 AM.webp


Adjusted for inflation, $26K.

That car now is $40K:
Screen Shot 2022-10-14 at 11.34.21 AM.webp


It's the same deal with trucks. Despite inflation driving things up, the costs of goods has increased considerably, while wages haven't kept pace.

Take housing as another example.

Both my parents were teachers, my dad a University prof, my mom a public school teacher. They made good money. They were able to buy a 3,500 sq ft three story brick house on a nice lot back in the late '80's (the house I grew up in) for like $60K. Adjusted for inflation, that house should be $127K. That house is worth $800K.

I paid $180K for my place in the early 2000's. It's now worth ~$650K according to the last real estate appraisal. I make good money, but my income did not increase proportionate to the value of my residence during that time period.

Rent is the same way.

So, because of how the costs of things have changed, the perception of financing things has also changed. A bit of saving and my parents could have bought their 80's house outright, no mortgage. Makes it quite easy to pay cash for a car. A pair of teachers right now can't do that with current housing prices, they end up with massive mortgages for modest homes and subsequently financing their vehicles.

I'm not bothered by the fact that the people around me are financing their vehicles. I am however bothered by the fact that I see new vehicles being driven by people living in subsidized housing that I know my tax dollars are footing the bill for. This is while the opioid crisis rages in our streets, thefts are at an all-time high and the police feel their work is futile because the courts just keep letting the perps right back out to offend again. All stuff my tax dollars also pay for. The homeless crisis is also in part fuelled by the above affordability concerns I've raised. People living in their cars because they can't afford rent.

Things have changed considerably in the last 50 years. Just like it's typically silly to judge historical characters by today's social standards (but we see it done regularly, and statues being torn down as a result), it's silly to universally cast judgement on people leveraging debt for housing and transportation. That doesn't mean there aren't valid judgements to be made about certain historical figures, just like it doesn't mean that debt isn't overly leveraged or abused by a chunk of the population, but things are different; things have changed and this must be considered for an informed discussion to take place.
 
I understand the concept of trying to compare vehicle prices from one era to the next and saying the price of everything has risen...

Another way to look at it is what if you got the actual same performance, features (or lack of them) and technology used in 1987 in a 2021 model - how would the prices compare?

The product in 2021 isn't just a new version of the car, its the car with significant performance improvements, safety improvements, etc... along with convenience type features. As an example, the audio system in 1987 was just that - now its expected to sync with your phone, run two different systems (apple or google), etc...

On the performance side, you are comparing a 225hp V8 vs a 460 hp V8 stock from the factory - with the performance improvements one would expect too...

That would be the legitimate apples to apples comparison (though really tough to do...)
 
A lot of the cost is in creature comforts that I typically don't care about such as 19" wheels, heated and ventilated leather seats, touchscreen audio, overengineered climate control, automatic high beams, Apple/Android app paring, 8-10 speakers, adaptive cruise control, electric power steering, rpm matching, etc... plus all the dead weight of the wiring for all this junk. If they sold a stripped down model of a new Mustang GT, keeping the 5.0L and 6-speed manual, with simple cloth bucket seats, a simple radio, and manual everything (I'd even take manual windows) at ~$8k less and 300-400 lbs lighter, I'd be all over it like white on rice. It's a performance car that I would intend to drive like a performance car. If I wanted all of the creature comforts, I'd buy a Cadillac.

Of course, that'll never happen. I'll have to settle for waiting for some kid to wrap his $50k around a tree and get the engine and trans to swap in a fox body.
 
I understand the concept of trying to compare vehicle prices from one era to the next and saying the price of everything has risen...

Another way to look at it is what if you got the actual same performance, features (or lack of them) and technology used in 1987 in a 2021 model - how would the prices compare?

The product in 2021 isn't just a new version of the car, its the car with significant performance improvements, safety improvements, etc... along with convenience type features. As an example, the audio system in 1987 was just that - now its expected to sync with your phone, run two different systems (apple or google), etc...

On the performance side, you are comparing a 225hp V8 vs a 460 hp V8 stock from the factory - with the performance improvements one would expect too...

That would be the legitimate apples to apples comparison (though really tough to do...)
You can't do that though, nobody made a 460HP factory V8 in 1987. 225HP was very good for the time period and slots in where the 460HP does currently. Cars evolve, technology evolves a Mustang GT is still a Mustang GT and has evolved just like every other model.

This is like comparing an 8088 to a current i7 and being like "well, what if you had an 8Mhz CPU with 640KB of RAM today in a 2021 computer, how would the prices compare?" It's a preposterous proposition.
 
A lot of the cost is in creature comforts that I typically don't care about such as 19" wheels, heated and ventilated leather seats, touchscreen audio, overengineered climate control, automatic high beams, Apple/Android app paring, 8-10 speakers, adaptive cruise control, electric power steering, rpm matching, etc... plus all the dead weight of the wiring for all this junk. If they sold a stripped down model of a new Mustang GT, keeping the 5.0L and 6-speed manual, with simple cloth bucket seats, a simple radio, and manual everything (I'd even take manual windows) at ~$8k less and 300-400 lbs lighter, I'd be all over it like white on rice. It's a performance car that I would intend to drive like a performance car. If I wanted all of the creature comforts, I'd buy a Cadillac.

Of course, that'll never happen. I'll have to settle for waiting for some kid to wrap his $50k around a tree and get the engine and trans to swap in a fox body.
The Mustang GT in 1987 was a pretty decently optioned car though. Mine had power lumbar and power seats, power windows, power locks. The CD player was optional. It had sequential electronic fuel injection, a low oil level sensor, limited slip, cruise control with on-wheel controls...etc.

Our '89 Town Car was more fancy, having climate control, automatic headlights and high beams, air ride, power seats, windows, locks, digital gauges, JBL sound system with amp in the trunk...etc.

Perhaps a better comparison would be a truck, as you could get a stripper truck in the 1980's and you can still buy a basic truck now.

- RAM 2500 Tradesman in 2WD with an 8' box, regular cab, cloth seats and zero options (manual seats, manual locks, manual windows...etc) is $48,000.
- MSRP in 1987 for a D250 was $10,000, that's $22,000 today.

That is a relative chasm; more than double the price, inflation adjusted.
 
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