100k Prius

[Smokescreen]

Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: dareo
What really bothers me about Toyota and its Prius is that the highway MPG comes from the extremely aerodynamic shape.

So why is every other Toyota not as aerodynamic? I'd take a Prius body w/o any hybrid equipment and a 1.5L or smaller engine, 6 speed manual, and a corolla price.

Toyota won't do it. They won't sell a super basic non hybrid Prius because it would equal or best the highway MPG numbers of a hybrid Prius for way less $$$. The savings could pay for a decade of city driving at 30 mpg instead of 50 mpg.

If a 2012 Prius weighs 3042 lbs, how much lighter would it be without all the hybrid gear? 200-300 lbs lighter?


because the acceleration would be super low, and there will not be regenerative braking, and the gear ratio will be much more limited, so you will still not get the same high way mpg and significantly lower city mpg and torque.

There is a reason things are tuned a certain way, and not everyone is commuting 50 miles with no traffic.


No.

Aero dynamics play the largest factor besides engine size at highway speed. http://www.aerocivic.com/ makes the Prius and any other hybrid look like a complete joke at highway speed and beyond even to 90mph.... all using a 20 year old car technology with basic 1930's aerodynamics. If you are speaking aerodynamics aside, a 1992 Civic or any other great fuel economy car of the late 80's or 90's is totally drivable in the city, gets way better fuel economy than almost any gas car of today.

Toyota (or anyone else) most definitely could build a simple gas (or diesel) extremely fuel efficient non-hybrid car and they could build it easily under $20K...but they won't for many reasons (market size, lack of profit margin, looks and many, many others..)

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: Smokescreen

No.

Aero dynamics play the largest factor besides engine size at highway speed. http://www.aerocivic.com/ makes the Prius and any other hybrid look like a complete joke at highway speed and beyond even to 90mph.... all using a 20 year old car technology with basic 1930's aerodynamics. If you are speaking aerodynamics aside, a 1992 Civic or any other great fuel economy car of the late 80's or 90's is totally drivable in the city, gets way better fuel economy than almost any gas car of today.

Toyota (or anyone else) most definitely could build a simple gas (or diesel) extremely fuel efficient non-hybrid car and they could build it easily under $20K...but they won't for many reasons (market size, lack of profit margin, looks and many, many others..)


I know aerodynamics being around 70% of what the car is dragged on, but in practicality people still want to accelerate a car normally (i.e. around 0-60 in 10 seconds or so). You already answer the question about why Toyota won't build it for this market (but they are common in India) because people in this market wouldn't want it.

 

[Smokescreen]

0-60 time in 10 seconds or less...easily accomplished by nearly every compact car from 1990 and up.

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: Smokescreen
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: dareo
What really bothers me about Toyota and its Prius is that the highway MPG comes from the extremely aerodynamic shape.

So why is every other Toyota not as aerodynamic? I'd take a Prius body w/o any hybrid equipment and a 1.5L or smaller engine, 6 speed manual, and a corolla price.

Toyota won't do it. They won't sell a super basic non hybrid Prius because it would equal or best the highway MPG numbers of a hybrid Prius for way less $$$. The savings could pay for a decade of city driving at 30 mpg instead of 50 mpg.

If a 2012 Prius weighs 3042 lbs, how much lighter would it be without all the hybrid gear? 200-300 lbs lighter?


because the acceleration would be super low, and there will not be regenerative braking, and the gear ratio will be much more limited, so you will still not get the same high way mpg and significantly lower city mpg and torque.

There is a reason things are tuned a certain way, and not everyone is commuting 50 miles with no traffic.


No.

Aero dynamics play the largest factor besides engine size at highway speed. http://www.aerocivic.com/ makes the Prius and any other hybrid look like a complete joke at highway speed and beyond even to 90mph.... all using a 20 year old car technology with basic 1930's aerodynamics. If you are speaking aerodynamics aside, a 1992 Civic or any other great fuel economy car of the late 80's or 90's is totally drivable in the city, gets way better fuel economy than almost any gas car of today.

Toyota (or anyone else) most definitely could build a simple gas (or diesel) extremely fuel efficient non-hybrid car and they could build it easily under $20K...but they won't for many reasons (market size, lack of profit margin, looks and many, many others..)

I agree that there is a fairly large market for efficient highway cars, as there are lots of TDI's on my commute. It would be nice to get a highway tuned gas version of the Prius but I think alot of its highway mileage still comes from the CVT and electrical system. The planetary transmission needs the electric motor to change and hold gear ratios, and I assume they use the electric motor select ratios on the highway that maximize mileage. Maybe there are highway "tunes" available to maximize hwy mileage as well? 200-300-400lbs doesn't affect hwy mileage much and I find if I can get equal or better hwy mileage with 300lbs of feed in the trunk due to longer coasts in N. Small cars just with a CVT don't seem to be able to pull off big mileage gains compared to a normal auto or stick.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: Smokescreen
0-60 time in 10 seconds or less...easily accomplished by nearly every compact car from 1990 and up.


With today's emission and safety standard, you cannot get that with a lean burn engine with a stick like the Honda Civic HX or Geo Metro and you will end up with something like a 40mpg highway instead of the previous 50mpg highway.

A Yaris or Chevy Cruze Eco is probably as close as you get to today, unless you go hybrid. Diesel doesn't count as it has more energy per volume than gas and cost more.

 

[dareo]

Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: dareo
What really bothers me about Toyota and its Prius is that the highway MPG comes from the extremely aerodynamic shape.

So why is every other Toyota not as aerodynamic? I'd take a Prius body w/o any hybrid equipment and a 1.5L or smaller engine, 6 speed manual, and a corolla price.

Toyota won't do it. They won't sell a super basic non hybrid Prius because it would equal or best the highway MPG numbers of a hybrid Prius for way less $$$. The savings could pay for a decade of city driving at 30 mpg instead of 50 mpg.

If a 2012 Prius weighs 3042 lbs, how much lighter would it be without all the hybrid gear? 200-300 lbs lighter?


because the acceleration would be super low, and there will not be regenerative braking, and the gear ratio will be much more limited, so you will still not get the same high way mpg and significantly lower city mpg and torque.

There is a reason things are tuned a certain way, and not everyone is commuting 50 miles with no traffic.


People in bad traffic can pay extra for the hybrid/auto version. Someone who just needs to get 60 miles down the highway each day to work might want to pay way less money for the same MPG.

With 100 hp, .25 or less drag and a 6 speed the acceleration would be plenty. Nothing that gets really good MPG has good acceleration anyway.

Look at this ugly car:

http://jalopnik.com/338484/homemade-boattail-aerocivic-gets-50-miles-per-stare

*edit* http://www.aerocivic.com/ is the same car but better photos and info. Thanks Smokescreen!

90 day average of 67.5 mpg, not diesel, not hybrid, just aerodynamic and ugly. Even the Prius could be improved upon aerodynamically.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: dareo

*edit* http://www.aerocivic.com/ is the same car but better photos and info. Thanks Smokescreen!

90 day average of 67.5 mpg, not diesel, not hybrid, just aerodynamic and ugly. Even the Prius could be improved upon aerodynamically.


That is not a commercial car that will sell, and likely going to get some fix it ticket around the country for crash worthiness or parts stability at high speed (body parts may fly off the car at high speed). You cannot compare a jury rig to a commercially build vehicles.

I do agree that we should allow sales of those K cars and Geo Metros / Civics HX with early 90s emission and crash worthiness, and people should overlook ugliness for better coefficient of drag.

 

[dareo]

Aero civic is just a proof of concept that says we are getting robbed every tank by car makers building bricks. Even pre-WWII Germans could figure it out.

Prius is an amazing vehicle for a lot of reasons. I just think more cars should have equal or better drag coefficients. Prius can still win the city MPG crown. I don't know if i would keep one past 200k, but a great car to buy new/nearly new. New Prius=way better idea than a new TDI these days.