100,000 mile OCI

[Kira]

Brilliant!
On a related note, I always wondered about the return line. How large a line and of what material it's made from.
My engine (Volvo B5244S in an '07 V70) has a stubby oil filler neck. I could drill a hole in the neck and run the wee line through it.
Make it extend 6mm or so into the neck and I could easily see it. Drilling a hole through the cap is easy enough and doesn't involve "drilling the engine itself" but the run would have to hump up high to turn and bend down into the cap.

Obviously, rigging plastic external oil carrying pipes is the scariest part of these installations.

 

[MattPersman]

I’ve seen somewhere in the 50k range on a factory fill and filter before it was done. I don’t remember what engine exactly it was. Also seen several in the 20ks. Those were pretty sludged up changed the oil and sent them out

This is over the course of many many years at a few dealers.

But it does make you think man I could probably go a lot longer

Some claimed they changed it. Some said they didn’t know they had to, some said they didn’t have time.

 

[slacktide_bitog]

Maybe it might be possible on a non-turbo non-DI if you use A3/B4 synthetic oil and it holds 5 gallons

 

[750IX]

Bmw`s lifetime on the ZF transmissions is 100.000 miles. ZF disagree. Bmw test the transmissions up to 100.000 miles and get an "acceptable rate of failure" on the original fill with in the extended warranty and "good-will" repair limit period. As i see it if you plan to keep your Bmw beyond this period and have to pay for the repairs yourself its smart to start servicing your tranny at an earlier point like 8years/50.000 miles. This service interval from ZF supersedes BMW's "lifetime fill" https://blog.fcpeuro.com/bmw-lifetime-transmission-fluid-isnt-lifetime

 

[ToadU]

All to save about $60 at most once or twice a year. Incredible.

Why incredible? You are thinking in micro terms. Consider this from a macro level. It’s not just about money although money is always a factor. Sixty bucks might mean nothing to you but consider these points overall:

—a fleet of vehicles used in a business be it a fleet of two or 200 a savings on maintenance is always a goal of a successful and profitable business / even not-for-profits have budgets

—opportunity cost / when the vehicle is down for maintenance it cannot be used for whatever service said vehicle provides...towing, police, fire, landscaper, plumber ect ect ect So it’s just not $60 or whatever it’s a heck of a lot more depending what your vehicle can gross an hour.

—Human error / more frequent maintenance introduces human error into the equation / no matter how conscientious, qualified or experienced the person is doing said maintenance everyone can and does inevitably make mistakes / in this example a double filter gasket, forget to tighten a drain plug, forget to refill oil or any number of things can—and do—go wrong could cause a major failure of the engine. Less maintenance and longer OCIs and longer other fluid changes means less chance of error. Btw I haven’t seen an “excellent” mechanic in years since my shop service manager retired. I have seen a couple of good mechanics here and there but they are mostly called owners. My shop frankly has barely adequate mechanics and that’s pretty much all you can find today. Every shop has these challenges. They less they touch my trucks and the less they do the better Just being honest.

—Environmental / Waste / I’m no hippie tree hugger but I don’t like to waste something be it time, money or natural resources for absolutely no return. A 3k OCI is a total waste for example. Although not an environmentalist, I certainly use common sense in my everyday life and avoid wasting things. (Regular readers you got me on idling my truck Non-stop for AC and heat. Guilty). Put another way I have no problem with hunting but would never kill to just kill. thats how I feel about needless and wasteful maintenance too.

The are probably more items when thinking about it on a macro level as it applies to businesses and municipalities not listed here. I hope this makes sense. The savings could be in the thousands or even millions depending how many vehicles are being maintained.

 

[svtrit]

Why incredible? You are thinking in micro terms. Consider this from a macro level. It’s not just about money although money is always a factor. Sixty bucks might mean nothing to you but consider these points overall:

—a fleet of vehicles used in a business be it a fleet of two or 200 a savings on maintenance is always a goal of a successful and profitable business / even not-for-profits have budgets

—opportunity cost / when the vehicle is down for maintenance it cannot be used for whatever service said vehicle provides...towing, police, fire, landscaper, plumber ect ect ect So it’s just not $60 or whatever it’s a heck of a lot more depending what your vehicle can gross an hour.

—Human error / more frequent maintenance introduces human error into the equation / no matter how conscientious, qualified or experienced the person is doing said maintenance everyone can and does inevitably make mistakes / in this example a double filter gasket, forget to tighten a drain plug, forget to refill oil or any number of things can—and do—go wrong could cause a major failure of the engine. Less maintenance and longer OCIs and longer other fluid changes means less chance of error. Btw I haven’t seen an “excellent” mechanic in years since my shop service manager retired. I have seen a couple of good mechanics here and there but they are mostly called owners. My shop frankly has barely adequate mechanics and that’s pretty much all you can find today. Every shop has these challenges. They less they touch my trucks and the less they do the better Just being honest.

—Environmental / Waste / I’m no hippie tree hugger but I don’t like to waste something be it time, money or natural resources for absolutely no return. A 3k OCI is a total waste for example. Although not an environmentalist, I certainly use common sense in my everyday life and avoid wasting things. (Regular readers you got me on idling my truck Non-stop for AC and heat. Guilty). Put another way I have no problem with hunting but would never kill to just kill. thats how I feel about needless and wasteful maintenance too.

The are probably more items when thinking about it on a macro level as it applies to businesses and municipalities not listed here. I hope this makes sense. The savings could be in the thousands or even millions depending how many vehicles are being maintained.

I've run enough business fleets to know that purchasing a fleet vehicle does not mean it has had excellent maintenance. Businesses treat vehicles just the same as a computer, lab tool, etc. Fleet maintenance companies are charged with reducing cost as much as possible. So, extend oil changes, only change 3 of 4 tires if 1 still has 1/32 left, etc. It's about saving money for the business and increasing uptime. Sales people are also VERY hard on vehicles. I've seen them zero out the OLM and keep on trucking for 20-30k miles on whatever cheap oil the local quick lube provides.

 

[doublebase]

Why incredible? You are thinking in micro terms. Consider this from a macro level. It’s not just about money although money is always a factor. Sixty bucks might mean nothing to you but consider these points overall:

—a fleet of vehicles used in a business be it a fleet of two or 200 a savings on maintenance is always a goal of a successful and profitable business / even not-for-profits have budgets

—opportunity cost / when the vehicle is down for maintenance it cannot be used for whatever service said vehicle provides...towing, police, fire, landscaper, plumber ect ect ect So it’s just not $60 or whatever it’s a heck of a lot more depending what your vehicle can gross an hour.

—Human error / more frequent maintenance introduces human error into the equation / no matter how conscientious, qualified or experienced the person is doing said maintenance everyone can and does inevitably make mistakes / in this example a double filter gasket, forget to tighten a drain plug, forget to refill oil or any number of things can—and do—go wrong could cause a major failure of the engine. Less maintenance and longer OCIs and longer other fluid changes means less chance of error. Btw I haven’t seen an “excellent” mechanic in years since my shop service manager retired. I have seen a couple of good mechanics here and there but they are mostly called owners. My shop frankly has barely adequate mechanics and that’s pretty much all you can find today. Every shop has these challenges. They less they touch my trucks and the less they do the better Just being honest.

—Environmental / Waste / I’m no hippie tree hugger but I don’t like to waste something be it time, money or natural resources for absolutely no return. A 3k OCI is a total waste for example. Although not an environmentalist, I certainly use common sense in my everyday life and avoid wasting things. (Regular readers you got me on idling my truck Non-stop for AC and heat. Guilty). Put another way I have no problem with hunting but would never kill to just kill. thats how I feel about needless and wasteful maintenance too.

The are probably more items when thinking about it on a macro level as it applies to businesses and municipalities not listed here. I hope this makes sense. The savings could be in the thousands or even millions depending how many vehicles are being maintained.

The reason you don’t see many excellent mechanics anymore is because their employers don’t pay them accordingly. And they leave. They leave the trade and do something else (because they are probably more than skilled enough to do another trade), or they go into teaching/instruction/college/high school/post secondary education. Or they try their hand at opening their own shop - where they won’t be able to find excellent techs either - and then they’ll be working their butts off or realizing they made a mistake and need to get out of the industry and into something else that’s more financially rewarding and easier.

The auto industry is one of the most cut throat, hustling, million mile an hour businesses you’ll ever see. And unlike working as a stock broker or high pressure sales job, it doesn’t pay. Sure, you’ll see one or two techs making slightly over a $100,000 grand a year at a dealer, but that doesn’t last long and the benefits are horrendous. And as soon as they get into their early 50’s? They’re one injury away from calling it a career. And they are hustling like you wouldn’t believe to make that much money...all it takes is a change in a service writer or the owner to change philosophy and hire too many techs...and they’ll be making much much less. It’s so unstable. I see these guys all the time, riding high, making great money. Then a year later they’re making $30k-$40k less, not knowing what hit them. It’s kind of sad because these are very talented people.

 

[AITG]

Amazing how you can never get an exacting definition of what "lifetime" means.

Actually, it's quite simple. Your xxx has a lifetime warranty. It craps out, and then you know how long the 'lifetime' was.

 

[AITG]

The reason you don’t see many excellent mechanics anymore is because their employers don’t pay them accordingly. And they leave. They leave the trade and do something else (because they are probably more than skilled enough to do another trade), or they go into teaching/instruction/college/high school/post secondary education. Or they try their hand at opening their own shop - where they won’t be able to find excellent techs either - and then they’ll be working their butts off or realizing they made a mistake and need to get out of the industry and into something else that’s more financially rewarding and easier.

The auto industry is one of the most cut throat, hustling, million mile an hour businesses you’ll ever see. And unlike working as a stock broker or high pressure sales job, it doesn’t pay. Sure, you’ll see one or two techs making slightly over a $100,000 grand a year at a dealer, but that doesn’t last long and the benefits are horrendous. And as soon as they get into their early 50’s? They’re one injury away from calling it a career. And they are hustling like you wouldn’t believe to make that much money...all it takes is a change in a service writer or the owner to change philosophy and hire too many techs...and they’ll be making much much less. It’s so unstable. I see these guys all the time, riding high, making great money. Then a year later they’re making $30k-$40k less, not knowing what hit them. It’s kind of sad because these are very talented people.

I worked as a diesel mechanic for over 30 years. I either got paid by the hour or worked on a salary. It was tough on the body but I loved the work. One day after I turned 55, I retired and did something completely different. It's a young persons job. I would have been on the edge of starvation before I would have worked flat rate...hated working on cars, even my own stuff. It was obvious that they are designed to be assembled, not repaired.

 

[doublebase]

I worked as a diesel mechanic for over 30 years. I either got paid by the hour or worked on a salary. It was tough on the body but I loved the work. One day after I turned 55, I retired and did something completely different. It's a young persons job. I would have been on the edge of starvation before I would have worked flat rate...hated working on cars, even my own stuff. It was obvious that they are designed to be assembled, not repaired.

Yeah, I think diesel seems more...I wouldn’t call it “easier”, but maybe more fair. Work is always there, hourly/salary wage, consistent. I think the bigger trucks accommodate a tech a lot easier than these cars, where the engine is stuffed right up against the fender or firewall. At least with a diesel, you can work on the thing, the stuff is right there.

But I agree 100%, both are just tough trades to be in/young man’s game.

 

[Gene K]

Yeah, I think diesel seems more...I wouldn’t call it “easier”, but maybe more fair. Work is always there, hourly/salary wage, consistent. I think the bigger trucks accommodate a tech a lot easier than these cars, where the engine is stuffed right up against the fender or firewall. At least with a diesel, you can work on the thing, the stuff is right there.

But I agree 100%, both are just tough trades to be in/young man’s game.

I know a lot of mechanics are not real happy with the newer Class 8 Trucks with the back of the engine stuck up under the cowl. Makes getting the gasket back on correctly after an overhead a pain. Setback axle also makes access more difficult than the older trucks.

Still nothing like the pain in production cars. I miss my real race cars with tube chassis and lift off front end. Made life a lot easier.

I remember working on my 60's and early '70's pick-ups sitting on the front inner wheelwell. Can't hardly do that with today's trucks.

 

[BMW850]

200,000-Mile Oil Changes on Trucks with with Special Bypass Filtration

https://www.truckinginfo.com/153413/200-000-mile-oil-changes

 

[ToadU]

The reason you don’t see many excellent mechanics anymore is because their employers don’t pay them accordingly. And they leave. They leave the trade and do something else (because they are probably more than skilled enough to do another trade), or they go into teaching/instruction/college/high school/post secondary education. Or they try their hand at opening their own shop - where they won’t be able to find excellent techs either - and then they’ll be working their butts off or realizing they made a mistake and need to get out of the industry and into something else that’s more financially rewarding and easier.

The auto industry is one of the most cut throat, hustling, million mile an hour businesses you’ll ever see. And unlike working as a stock broker or high pressure sales job, it doesn’t pay. Sure, you’ll see one or two techs making slightly over a $100,000 grand a year at a dealer, but that doesn’t last long and the benefits are horrendous. And as soon as they get into their early 50’s? They’re one injury away from calling it a career. And they are hustling like you wouldn’t believe to make that much money...all it takes is a change in a service writer or the owner to change philosophy and hire too many techs...and they’ll be making much much less. It’s so unstable. I see these guys all the time, riding high, making great money. Then a year later they’re making $30k-$40k less, not knowing what hit them. It’s kind of sad because these are very talented people.

All industries are cut throat. It’s extremely difficult to start a business and even more difficult to stay in business. The problem overall is a generation of workers that are lazy, feel entitled, want to make big bucks on the first day, coddled by their parents and recreational drug users. Very few people go into the trades today. A large number go to colleges and get stupider by the time they get their degree (I have a degree from a very well known and highly ranked college so been there and done that). Another group have no “real” trade and work in the service industry.

A good tradesperson be it a plumber, mechanic, machinist ect ect can make as much as a doctor or lawyer.....easily into the 6 figures. that just isn’t happening today. Kids are going to college to get brainwashed and indoctrinated or becoming total losers delivering pizza and working in a dead-end service job. Major problem.

Even people with some trade school training, especially in the auto repair industry, just know how to plug into the OBD port and read what the computer tells them. ASE certs mean only the person can pass a test on a computer not diagnose a vehicle. They are parts changers, many with huge and fancy tool boxes to match their egos but can’t diagnose a simple problem.

I get dozens and dozens of applications. Out of 100 applications only 3 or 4 are even eligible to be hired—and I’m probably being generous. Those 3 or 4 probably are below average employees but meet the requirements to even be eligible for Employment. If the background check doesn’t knock them out of the running the pee test always gets them. Seems like high 90 percent of applicants for every position from tow truck drivers, mechanics and office staff can’t pass a drug screen or background. Ninety plus percent are smoking weed.

That’s why so called “mechanics” don’t get paid more. Add in the repairs that’s have to be redone a time or two, botched diagnosis and all of the other bull, add in the bureaucracy the government mandates employers to follow and all of thr stupid regulations and there just isn’t any way to pay a person who is average as best an above average salary.

I employ, depending on the time of year and business demands, between 80-100 staff. We hire 200-300 people a year. Always training. Always a huge revolving door.

 

[Revving2Redline]

I think I saw somewhere that when Mobil1 was introduced someone ran a Lincoln with M1 20wt and went 100k before changing the oil.

Tig1?

 

[Revving2Redline]

If I could get the CTR oil capacity of almost 7 litres in my Civic along with a oil cooler I'm sure I could get 50,000 on Redline 0w30 maybe. If all that was allowed to fill was topping off from consumption I might consider that a Top Gear UK challenge. Right now I added a FramUltra at 347,700 and its going three oil changes or no less than about 27-30k miles.

 

[doublebase]

All industries are cut throat. It’s extremely difficult to start a business and even more difficult to stay in business. The problem overall is a generation of workers that are lazy, feel entitled, want to make big bucks on the first day, coddled by their parents and recreational drug users. Very few people go into the trades today. A large number go to colleges and get stupider by the time they get their degree (I have a degree from a very well known and highly ranked college so been there and done that). Another group have no “real” trade and work in the service industry.

A good tradesperson be it a plumber, mechanic, machinist ect ect can make as much as a doctor or lawyer.....easily into the 6 figures. that just isn’t happening today. Kids are going to college to get brainwashed and indoctrinated or becoming total losers delivering pizza and working in a dead-end service job. Major problem.

Even people with some trade school training, especially in the auto repair industry, just know how to plug into the OBD port and read what the computer tells them. ASE certs mean only the person can pass a test on a computer not diagnose a vehicle. They are parts changers, many with huge and fancy tool boxes to match their egos but can’t diagnose a simple problem.

I get dozens and dozens of applications. Out of 100 applications only 3 or 4 are even eligible to be hired—and I’m probably being generous. Those 3 or 4 probably are below average employees but meet the requirements to even be eligible for Employment. If the background check doesn’t knock them out of the running the pee test always gets them. Seems like high 90 percent of applicants for every position from tow truck drivers, mechanics and office staff can’t pass a drug screen or background. Ninety plus percent are smoking weed.

That’s why so called “mechanics” don’t get paid more. Add in the repairs that’s have to be redone a time or two, botched diagnosis and all of the other bull, add in the bureaucracy the government mandates employers to follow and all of thr stupid regulations and there just isn’t any way to pay a person who is average as best an above average salary.

I employ, depending on the time of year and business demands, between 80-100 staff. We hire 200-300 people a year. Always training. Always a huge revolving door.

Every generation is considered “lazy” or entitled or privileged. Doesn’t change the fact that mechanics have to go out and buy $40,000 worth of tools and get paid an hour and a half for a 5 hour diagnosis job that a service writer hands to them because “no one else can fix it”.

You mention plumbers, electricians, mechanists, carpenters...yeah, I agree, they all can make great money by hustling, making good decisions and being responsible. Are ”good” electricians, machinist and plumbers going to make as much as a doctor? No I don’t think so. Now, maybe a “great” electrician that owns 5 vans and has 10 guys working for him and inherited his fathers rental properties. Or maybe a good hvac guy who also owns a very good business...probably second generation business and made enough good decisions not to screw up daddy or uncle teddys customer base and reputation. But a “mechanic”. Yeah good luck with that.

Good luck working at the dealer where 15 techs are fighting over the brake jobs and what’s left of tuneups. While the guy that isn’t the “parts exchanger” is stuck with a warranty diag job...and it’s ok because “he’ll get the next brake job”, but he won’t because that went to the tech that sells his weed to the service manager. Cut throat indeed. It’s also bellow the poverty level for most.

All that^^^and you’ll get two weeks vacation and two sick days a year (better not use them or you’ll be fired). Your health insurance will run you and your family $1,200 a month and that’s ok because the tool truck will cost you almost as much, but they’re shiny and well, that tool salesman is a super nice guy and gave you a free jacket that you can proudly wear to the grocery store when you hand over food stamps (that way everyone can know what you do for a living). And those jackets have lots of pockets (for all the stamps).

Meanwhile the plumber works 40 hours a week and made $2,000...not including the 2 water heaters he’ll install on the side this weekend, where he’ll pocket a nice $900 under the table beer money (Or weed, because they’re all bad guys, even where it’s legal). But I’m sure the mechanic can do some side jobs too, until the neighbors call the cops on him because he’s making too much noise and he’s stuck under a car looking like the house fell on top of him, like happened to that witch in the wizard of ozz. But it’s ok! The mechanic is living next to a doctor (because of course the mechanic makes as much as a doctor, so why wouldn’t he live next to one?). And the doctor saves him. All that for the $50 bucks profit you made off that brake job - that required you to run to the parts store three times and had you pull out the torches once because the darn bolt snapped in the caliper mount because it hadn’t been removed in 15 years. Tried telling the customer that while I was getting my leg amputated by my neighbor, but he still wouldn’t pay for my time or that bolt.

Life is good for the mechanic, I feel bad for all those college grads and lawyers. Haha.

 

[Jack Watts]

—Environmental / Waste / I’m no hippie tree hugger but I don’t like to waste something be it time, money or natural resources for absolutely no return. A 3k OCI is a total waste for example. Although not an environmentalist, I certainly use common sense in my everyday life and avoid wasting things.

not trying to get political here, but if you believe in not wasting resources for no reason, you are by definition an environmentalist. This isn't something that should be politicized, nor something for which you should apologize. It saddens me that people have to make this sort of disclaimer. When did preserving resources become a bad thing? This is something on which everyone should agree. You don't have to strap yourself to an oil tanker to be "an environmentalist", IMO.

Use a little less, save some for the next guy and your kids.

 

[ToadU]

Every generation is considered “lazy” or entitled or privileged. Doesn’t change the fact that mechanics have to go out and buy $40,000 worth of tools and get paid an hour and a half for a 5 hour diagnosis job that a service writer hands to them because “no one else can fix it”.

You mention plumbers, electricians, mechanists, carpenters...yeah, I agree, they all can make great money by hustling, making good decisions and being responsible. Are ”good” electricians, machinist and plumbers going to make as much as a doctor? No I don’t think so. Now, maybe a “great” electrician that owns 5 vans and has 10 guys working for him and inherited his fathers rental properties. Or maybe a good hvac guy who also owns a very good business...probably second generation business and made enough good decisions not to screw up daddy or uncle teddys customer base and reputation. But a “mechanic”. Yeah good luck with that.

Good luck working at the dealer where 15 techs are fighting over the brake jobs and what’s left of tuneups. While the guy that isn’t the “parts exchanger” is stuck with a warranty diag job...and it’s ok because “he’ll get the next brake job”, but he won’t because that went to the tech that sells his weed to the service manager. Cut throat indeed. It’s also bellow the poverty level for most.

All that^^^and you’ll get two weeks vacation and two sick days a year (better not use them or you’ll be fired). Your health insurance will run you and your family $1,200 a month and that’s ok because the tool truck will cost you almost as much, but they’re shiny and well, that tool salesman is a super nice guy and gave you a free jacket that you can proudly wear to the grocery store when you hand over food stamps (that way everyone can know what you do for a living). And those jackets have lots of pockets (for all the stamps).

Meanwhile the plumber works 40 hours a week and made $2,000...not including the 2 water heaters he’ll install on the side this weekend, where he’ll pocket a nice $900 under the table beer money (Or weed, because they’re all bad guys, even where it’s legal). But I’m sure the mechanic can do some side jobs too, until the neighbors call the cops on him because he’s making too much noise and he’s stuck under a car looking like the house fell on top of him, like happened to that witch in the wizard of ozz. But it’s ok! The mechanic is living next to a doctor (because of course the mechanic makes as much as a doctor, so why wouldn’t he live next to one?). And the doctor saves him. All that for the $50 bucks profit you made off that brake job - that required you to run to the parts store three times and had you pull out the torches once because the darn bolt snapped in the caliper mount because it hadn’t been removed in 15 years. Tried telling the customer that while I was getting my leg amputated by my neighbor, but he still wouldn’t pay for my time or that bolt.

Life is good for the mechanic, I feel bad for all those college grads and lawyers. Haha.

I don’t think being a mechanic was / is the right job choice for you. Not sure where you have worked but I’ve never seen any of that at my shop (1st gen. no inheritance btw). My service manager makes $75k a year and a good tech can make 65k-80k. My top impound tow truck drivers make $75k. The average is much less but the cream gets paid well. My best driver dropped out of school and has an 11th grade education. My bottom of the barrel roadside drivers make $12-15 an hr.

No offense but you sound like one of the entitled employees I spoke about earlier. Probably wouldn’t make it a day at my company. I mean that as least offensively as possible but I believe it to be true.

 

[doublebase]

I don’t think being a mechanic was / is the right job choice for you. Not sure where you have worked but I’ve never seen any of that at my shop (1st gen. no inheritance btw). My service manager makes $75k a year and a good tech can make 65k-80k. My top impound tow truck drivers make $75k. The average is much less but the cream gets paid well. My best driver dropped out of school and has an 11th grade education. My bottom of the barrel roadside drivers make $12-15 an hr.

No offense but you sound like one of the entitled employees I spoke about earlier. Probably wouldn’t make it a day at my company. I mean that as least offensively as possible but I believe it to be true.

None taken, and no offense to you, but you sound like the person that hires techs and doesn't understand what they do or how much more they should be paid.

Your service manager is making $75,000 a year? Hate to break it to you, but you just listed your highest paid employees and those salaries pail in comparison to what the highest paid employees make in virtually every other trade...and light years behind a doctor or lawyer (two careers you said they can compare to). And that’s not included the expense these tech incur buying their own tools. And you didn’t mention their benefits - or lack thereof - their health insurance, vacation days, amount of sick days, 401k...probably because you give them jack squat.

It’s funny how employees that want more and deserve more, are “entitled”. It’s probably why you have to hire 200-300 employees every year (your words) for an 80 person staff, because you can’t retain your people, because they know they can do better. But I’m sure they’re all just self entitled drug addicts. Lol.

And did you just say “the average is much less”?? Much less! Oh my lord. So half your staff is on welfare and food stamps. Nice.

 

[bbhero]

While I may agree with some of your points ^^^^^^

When I worked at Winn Dixie a grocery store 25 years ago.... We went through about 50 people in a year's time.... Only 3 people were worth anything and actually worked hard...

Many, many, many people don't want to work that hard....

What toadu stated is quite likely dead on accurate...