Originally Posted By: FoxS
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: verite
"It's disappointing that you have a big job on your hands at 135k."
Ha, I've had to do the alternator, cooling system, clutch, driveshaft and master-cylinder in the past 10k. The 540i drives great but my Z28 had better reliability to 135k.
Yes, BMW's aren't "cheap" cars to own. It isn't that the parts are expensive, they generally aren't, it is the fact that you are replacing parts that you are surprised need to be replaced..... The valve cover gasket here is a prime example of that. They aren't overly expensive, but you'd expect a modern valve cover gasket to last much longer.
That's what makes me laugh about the thicker oil advocates. The Teutonics are somehow the experts when it comes to oil viscosity for reliability while the rest of their vehicles fall apart.
In the meantime, the Japanese who have taken reliability to ridiculously high levels, can't be trusted as they seek to apply their engineering brilliance to high VI oils.
The Japanese have a track record of taking innovation and making it reliable. The fact that Hybrids are amongst the most reliable vehicles out there is never mentioned but it is astounding.
In the meantime, Teutonic manufacturers have problems with their innovations all the time. The reliability of Teutonic vehicles is abysmal.
Stereotype more please
I didn't say the vehicles were unreliable, and they CERTAINLY don't "fall apart", simply that parts that you expect to last longer..... don't. That doesn't make it unreliable, as the vehicle still functions fine when weeping out from the valve cover gasket for example, it is just annoying, and at 135K (the OP) you wouldn't expect to have to replace that item.... you wouldn't on a Ford.
One must also be careful not to confuse unreliable with overly complex. Though being overly complex can make a vehicle unreliable, it doesn't always. But it CAN make the vehicle a PITA to own.
My M5 has been perfectly reliable since I bought it. But that doesn't mean it hasn't needed parts. It needed a camshaft position sensor for example, which was ~$100.00, and not overly difficult to change (the cars are easy to work on with BMW's "layered" approach) but I have FOUR of the bloody things, and the rest of them are all the OE part that has a tendency to fail and cause erratic cam timing, which causes a reduction in power. Note that it doesn't disable the vehicle or cause it to be "unreliable", it just makes it down on power. Same goes for the fan resister control module.... Easy to change, cheap to buy, but yeah, I had to replace it..... with a revised part. This is also a German thing: once the car has been on the market for a while, they discover what has "issues" and then they fix them with revised parts. So while it is a pain to replace the part, usually the same part doesn't fail again once the revised component has been used. You feel a bit like a rolling experiment....
And that brings me back to my point about overly complex. My car has SIX computers, front and rear parking sensors, rain sensing wipers, dual variable cam timing, EIGHT throttle bodies, dual MAF's, a semi-dry sump, dynamic stability control, integrated navigation, variable assist power steering, drive by wire, climate control, auto windows, power sun shade, 4 billion way adjustable seats, 3 position driver seat, climate, mirror and comfort memory, 3-setting heated seats, HID's, 400HP and will do 190Mph. This car was the cat's [censored] back when it debuted and had features that nobody else had. It also cost an arm and a leg and if you service it at the dealer, yes, it is expensive to own relative to more moderately appointed vehicles that aren't something that was designed like it was a NASA engineering exercise.
HOWEVER
This is the REASON that German vehicles tend to be regarded as less reliable than the Nippon nameplates you allude to. They DEVELOP all of this stuff, and then the Japanese take it and slowly integrate it into their products sometime later, whilst making it more affordable, mainstream and reliable. And in that vein, it isn't the mature technologies in the German cars that tend to flake out, it is the "new stuff" most of the time. I think this is a symptom of "hey look what what can do!" without enough durability testing before bringing it to market.
And in that vein, you won't find many German cars that are sparse on features either. It isn't like you could go buy a base 3-series in 2002 with no variable cam timing, throttle by cable and no stability control like you could with a base Civic or Ford Focus for example. So by that metric, if you don't offer cars in a decontented trim, all of those extras are more "problem points" and subsequently "strikes against you" so to speak when Judith fills out her Consumer Reports survey about her 5-series and the fact she's had to put a high pressure fuel pump in it twice.
SOMEBODY has to innovate this stuff for the Japanese to copy it and make it reliable and within reach for the ordinary man
To counter the point you are making
But even the Japanese aren't infallible in this respect. You'd think that with all their superior Japanese quality control, Honda would have been able to design a reliable automatic transmission...... But the Odyssey and Accord were plagued with transmission problems for YEARS.
You'd think with all their superior Japanese quality control that Toyota would have been able to design engines that didn't sludge up, frames that didn't rot in half, camshafts that didn't break.....etc. But it happens.
Nissan had engines that ingested the insides of their catalytic converters causing complete engine failure.
Subaru had a head gasket failure epidemic.
Nobody makes a perfect car. The more cutting-edge features you roll into a vehicle, the greater the potential for teething issues and failures down the road.
And when you mass produce something, there is ALWAYS going to be SOMETHING that gets overlooked. Even the coveted Japanese quality control has failed here... numerous times.
Repeat German car buyers buy German cars because they are absolutely incredible vehicles to drive. I've never driven a car like my M5. So while it might not be the cheapest car to own, it might have expensive brakes, it may need a clutch every 150,000Km and it may need chassis parts more often than a Toyota, Toyota didn't have ANYTHING that came close to this car back in 2001 and even now the aged E39 cars are still a benchmark for ride quality, comfort, handling and the like. Not bad for a platform that is 15 years old.
