10 yr old V8 BMW: M1 0w40 or M1 10w40 Hi Mileage?

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Originally Posted By: verite
Yes. Overkill said my thoughts very articulately. The water-cooled alternator in my E39 a great case in point. Over-engineered and expensive for an alternator (about $900 at the dealer), but it lets BMW get the center of gravity that much lower.

Not that I don't think it's absurd that a car that was $60k new has gaskets that are guaranteed to breakdown after 8 years.


Yes, the gaskets are ridiculous, as are some of the other failings, but the cars are incredible. I'm absolutely in love with my M5 and quite frankly, so is my wife. We got a smoking deal on the E46, but it will likely be gone once i get the transmission fluid flushed and the drivers seat bottom replaced and I'll be shopping for a 540i to replace it. The E39 is just a much nicer riding platform that feels better than the E46 to both of us. She wants a car that feels like my car, and I can understand that, as I'm sure you can relate
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I don't disagree with you Overkill.

Definitely many German cars are far more satisfying to drive but part of that is the targeting of the customer base as well as the European market influence. Fun to drive is in their DNA so they should have gotten the reliability part of it right by now. Instead, they don't build their innovations reliably or engineered well enough. The Japanese focus on perfection for the end user and this applies to innovations also.

The Japanese have actually produced many fun to drive innovative cars. Supras, Skylines, Mazdas, S2000, NSX, LFA. They can do it but its not where their mainstream market is.

But while you can pick out cases of any brand having reliability issues, the data, from CR, JD Power, and many others, overwhelmingly shows the reliability statistics for German brands is substandard.

Lastly, I don't see German engines as being particularly advanced compared to Japanese engines. Many Japanese engines combine performance, mpg, reliability and don't require high spec oil. And in the CR reliability ratings, the Germans display a lot of engine reliability issues in all categories: major, minor and cooling while the Japanese get full reliability scores
 
Originally Posted By: FoxS
I don't disagree with you Overkill.

Definitely many German cars are far more satisfying to drive but part of that is the targeting of the customer base as well as the European market influence. Fun to drive is in their DNA so they should have gotten the reliability part of it right by now. Instead, they don't build their innovations reliably or engineered well enough. The Japanese focus on perfection for the end user and this applies to innovations also.

The Japanese have actually produced many fun to drive innovative cars. Supras, Skylines, Mazdas, S2000, NSX, LFA. They can do it but its not where their mainstream market is.

But while you can pick out cases of any brand having reliability issues, the data, from CR, JD Power, and many others, overwhelmingly shows the reliability statistics for German brands is substandard.

Lastly, I don't see German engines as being particularly advanced compared to Japanese engines. Many Japanese engines combine performance, mpg, reliability and don't require high spec oil. And in the CR reliability ratings, the Germans display a lot of engine reliability issues in all categories: major, minor and cooling while the Japanese get full reliability scores



I take the CR stuff with a grain of salt. As I said, if you don't offer decontented cars, your "results" are going to be biased, as you simply have that much more to go wrong with a given model. It is what it is.

The Japanese cars aren't designed to autobahn cruise either
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Show me a Japanese car produced from 1998-2003 that would do 190Mph (sustained) sitting at 7,000RPM for as long as you wanted it to be there..... There isn't one. The Germans and the Japanese aren't shooting for the same thing here, so comparing them isn't apples to apples.

Part of the "Japanese package" is fuel economy, reliability and without the use of "exotic" lubricants (with the exception of Honda's HTO-06 turbo spec....). Whilst the "German package" is that the car is capable of sustaining its top speed indefinitely without failure. This requires a specific lubricant approval and usually an HTHS of >3.5cP.

One must consider the difference in approach when contrasting German and Japanese vehicles. I do not believe the target audience to be the same.
 
Built for the autobahn yet somehow they are unreliable in the US and elsewhere.

That sums up their approach if you ask me. Overengineering and unreliable.

I'd be pretty confident taking a Lexus on the autobahn. You also do know that many German cars are electronically limited? Some of the 5.5L V8's are limited to 130mph. So that's not taxing them as much as your M5. The Ms and AMG's may be engineered for max speed but others are speed limited.

It's not just CR. Mercedes was at the absolute bottom when it came to reliability in the UK. The data does not lie.

Re HTHS, are you saying we don't need the 3.5 minimum in the US? Btw, one of the VW worldwide specs is 2.9 min I believe.
 
Originally Posted By: FoxS
Built for the autobahn yet somehow they are unreliable in the US and elsewhere.


I think I made my position on the use of the term "unreliable" quite clear at this point...... I don't believe we need to continue beating this dead horse. You are obvious not the target market of the marques in question.

Quote:
That sums up their approach if you ask me. Overengineering and unreliable.


And nobody is making you buy their cars. So prey tell, why continue to participate in a thread regarding oil choice for a BMW if you don't have any interest in owning one? I don't believe our discussion here with your focus on these cars being "unreliable" is of any value to the OP
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Quote:
I'd be pretty confident taking a Lexus on the autobahn. You also do know that many German cars are electronically limited? Some of the 5.5L V8's are limited to 130mph. So that's not taxing them as much as your M5. The Ms and AMG's may be engineered for max speed but others are speed limited.


And nobody is stopping you from taking a Lexus on the autobahn. But it wasn't designed with the autobahn in mind, whereas German cars are. As I said, different design approach here.

Quote:
It's not just CR. Mercedes was at the absolute bottom when it came to reliability in the UK. The data does not lie.

Re HTHS, are you saying we don't need the 3.5 minimum in the US? Btw, one of the VW worldwide specs is 2.9 min I believe.


I don't own a Mercedes, so I can't speak as to experience with them with regards to reliability/frequency of repairs. As I said, I take CR (and other "magazine" ratings) with a grain of salt.

The minimum 3.5cP HTHS is indeed part of the "design parameters" so to speak, which includes Autobahn usage as well as testing based on an oil that meets those design parameters. So while potentially an oil with a lower HTHS may work in the North American market, where the cars will never see their tested and designed for speeds unless they are on a race track, the cars are not tested on those lubricants so they are not recommended by the OEM's.

Now given those design characteristics and the fact that the testing was done with an approved lubricant, I also think it would be somewhat foolhardy to assume that a lower HTHS lubricant would work "just fine" simply because the vehicle is being used in an application that is less taxing than the one it was designed for. There are more characteristics to many of the euro certs and approvals than just the minimum HTHS.

And not all Euro marques spec the same minimum HTHS figure and it also varies based on engine choice/application. The 3.5 figure is common, which is why I cited it. There are other (lower) ones as well which you've noted with VW.

I doubt we are going to come to any sort of "agreement" at this point, so it may make sense to just leave this discussion where it stands. We are derailing the thread and not adding any value to it, as it appears we are just going to turn this into a back-and-forth.
 
Originally Posted By: verite
Hi folks,

I've got a BWM 540i/6speed. 135k.

I've always run Mobil 1 0w40, but I'm considering trying out the M1 High-Mileage synthetic.

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil_1_High_Mileage_10W-40.aspx

Site says it's has a higher level of detergent plus seal conditioners. Thought I'd give it a try and see if it helps with my minor valve-cover gasket leak, and perhaps it will clean out some sludge too.

Please don't reply that I should just replace the gasket - its on my todo list, but it's a big job.

I'm in SoCal, so no chance the car will be in weather lower than 40 degrees or higher than 85 before my next change.

Any experience with M1 high mileage oils? The 0w40 is the only one that meet BMW specs, so I'm a bit leery of stepping outside the recommended list.

Thanks!


Mobil 1 10W-40 would be fine, but 0W-40 also is high in detergents...
 
Overkill,

I thought it was an interesting argument. I was certainly getting a new perspective. But yes let's not derail the thread

Btw I'm quite familiar with the German cars. Spent a lot of time with the M3 convertible before choosing something else.

Currently looking at the A7 and Panamera, as well as the XJ.

The XF was one of the most joyous cars I've driven in a while, better than its equivalent German cars in my opinion, but Jags reliability is now more worrying.
 
Oh i thought you had an AMG 55 that you couldn't scan the owners manual and before that an Audi and the BITOG name Volvo ST1, The Saints P1800 was a dead give away.
Must be someone else.
 
The 530i was the best car I ever owned. I miss it. It was more than a car, it was part of you when you drive. Can't explain it, other than everything felt right. Engine was just powerful enough for its cornering ability. The gears were perfect for cornering. At 100mph I felt safe, brakes were strong. I really liked the heavy wheel at high speeds. She didn't die, she rotted away
cry.gif
 
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
The 530i was the best car I ever owned. I miss it. It was more than a car, it was part of you when you drive. Can't explain it, other than everything felt right. Engine was just powerful enough for its cornering ability. The gears were perfect for cornering. At 100mph I felt safe, brakes were strong. I really liked the heavy wheel at high speeds. She didn't die, she rotted away
cry.gif



And this is why we use Krown up here
wink.gif
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
The 530i was the best car I ever owned. I miss it. It was more than a car, it was part of you when you drive. Can't explain it, other than everything felt right. Engine was just powerful enough for its cornering ability. The gears were perfect for cornering. At 100mph I felt safe, brakes were strong. I really liked the heavy wheel at high speeds. She didn't die, she rotted away
cry.gif



And this is why we use Krown up here
wink.gif


Most shops that rust proofed went out of business or no longer offer it down here.
cry.gif
 
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
The 530i was the best car I ever owned. I miss it. It was more than a car, it was part of you when you drive. Can't explain it, other than everything felt right. Engine was just powerful enough for its cornering ability. The gears were perfect for cornering. At 100mph I felt safe, brakes were strong. I really liked the heavy wheel at high speeds. She didn't die, she rotted away
cry.gif



And this is why we use Krown up here
wink.gif


Most shops that rust proofed went out of business or no longer offer it down here.
cry.gif



Unreal
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Another way to get the older less fuel efficient cars off the road, let them rot away...make the environmental standards such that shops cant afford or are banned from selling rustproofing...hmmmm..Nah, the green agenda wouldn't think of that...or would they...hmmmm
 
The E60 528i that I'm working on needed new Valve cover gaskets @ 80k, new oil filter housing gasket at 82k, new rear bearings at 72k, new tranny pan gasket @ 58k, etc etc..

But it handles great, avg's 21mpg, and looks fancy
smile.gif
 
Originally Posted By: ukmastermind
The E60 528i that I'm working on needed new Valve cover gaskets @ 80k, new oil filter housing gasket at 82k, new rear bearings at 72k, new tranny pan gasket @ 58k, etc etc..

But it handles great, avg's 21mpg, and looks fancy
smile.gif



My sister's E46 330i has needed the VCG (which I did) as well as a new housing (and gasket) as somebody over-tightened the cover and actually cracked the housing
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Our 328i needs the housing gasket replaced.

The 330i doesn't have that much more than 60K miles on it. As I mentioned earlier, I think the VGC material choice is poor.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL

The minimum 3.5cP HTHS is indeed part of the "design parameters" so to speak, which includes Autobahn usage as well as testing based on an oil that meets those design parameters. So while potentially an oil with a lower HTHS may work in the North American market, where the cars will never see their tested and designed for speeds unless they are on a race track, the cars are not tested on those lubricants so they are not recommended by the OEM's.

That why I'm using a much lower HTHS oil in my E430. If my E430 is driven at max speed for hours then I would use M1 0W40 for sure.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Now given those design characteristics and the fact that the testing was done with an approved lubricant, I also think it would be somewhat foolhardy to assume that a lower HTHS lubricant would work "just fine" simply because the vehicle is being used in an application that is less taxing than the one it was designed for. There are more characteristics to many of the euro certs and approvals than just the minimum HTHS.

My E430 engine is much quieter and more responsive with lower HTHS oil.
 
Originally Posted By: ukmastermind
The E60 528i that I'm working on needed new Valve cover gaskets @ 80k, new oil filter housing gasket at 82k, new rear bearings at 72k, new tranny pan gasket @ 58k, etc etc..

My E39 needed new valve cover gasket at 50K miles, oil filter housing gasket at 60K. The rear main seal has been seeping since about 60K as well, but I haven't replaced it yet since that requires tranny to be dropped. I'm at 83K miles right now.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL


And this is why we use Krown up here
wink.gif



Overkill,

What does it cost to have a car rustproofed with the Krown process? How long is it good for?

(Pardon the interruption OP)
 
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