1 In 5 Auto Accident Deaths Now Involves Marijuana Use

[JeffKeryk]

Although I agree with @alarmguy post - and yours @JeffKeryk but.....some things are more addictive to some than others. Unlike you, alcohol has no additive power over me.

But I know people called "puffers", people who have a few hits of weed a half dozen times a day. In other words, they are high all day long. They're unable to stop, making weed their version of your alcohol.

My vice back in the college days was cocaine. That stuff was savagely addictive to me. I could study ALL NIGHT LONG on that stuff. Play nights with coeds could last ALL NIGHT LONG. There's nothing better than a coked up chick.

Thank God it almost killed me one night. Fortunately I had enough self awareness that almost dying of a heart attack made me come to my senses. I still remember sitting in a chair in this downtown Victorian, a booming party surrounding me, my heart rate spinning out of control at probably 200bpm - and being so out of touch with reality I just sat there and didn't ask anyone for help. Instead, I sat there in wide-eyed terror for three hours thinking I was just moments from death.

Here's the irony, there was a movement to legalize coke back in the '70s. Too bad it wasn't. The taxes generated from it could have rebuilt our entire electrical grid, much like @Hermann says the taxes generated by legalized weed is rebuilding i-70 throughout his state.

I find it troubling that we live in a nation that legalizes NEW vices for the tax revenue. Maybe one day I'll get my old '70s wish that cocaine will be legalized. That'll fix things.

Scott

Scott, JMO, but I tend to simplify things. You are spot on; alcohol was my Jones and I tried all kinds of things.
The way I see it is, many roads lead to hell. Pick your road.

Finally, the only person I have a problem using, drinking, whatever, is me. I don't pretend to understand other's lives.

 

[PWMDMD]

I’m not here to defend DWI types - no type of impairment belongs around equipment, roads, or worksites. But is not alcohol controlled down to percentage in the bottle - massive studies of percentage in the body - and there are many levels of follow up tests …

How does one do this with so many random clumps of pot?

I don't understand why it would matter. How does knowing the vodka I'm drinking is 40% EtOH help me decide how if I'm "safely impaired" or not to do something? What about red wine? What about beer that can have widely different ABV? What about for my wife who is 1/3 my size? What if she drinks frequently and has high levels of alcohol dehydrogenase in her liver and I do not? How does knowing how much EtOH is in something help me know if I'm too impaired compared to not knowing how much THC? What is the exact consumption level of the above that will put me just under being arrested? I have no idea. Edibles tell you how much THC they have but that gives me no actionable information to determine if I can go use heavy equipment or not.

The only sensible answer is if you consume ANY alcohol or ANY THC then you don't drive or play with the front-end loader. I know this isn't what many people do but again those are the same people who would do it anyway if alcohol or marijuana was illegal and I'm not responsible for other people's irresponsible behaviors.

 

[javacontour]

Scott, JMO, but I tend to simplify things. You are spot on; alcohol was my Jones and I tried all kinds of things.
The way I see it is, many roads lead to hell. Pick your road.

Finally, the only person I have a problem using, drinking, whatever, is me. I don't pretend to understand other's lives.

This is so true.

My wife has never seen me drunk in the nearly 20 years she's known me.

Her brother who recently passed had what ended up being a lethal relationship with alcohol.

Personality plays a big role in this. Not everyone has a healthy relationship with substances, money, and other things we don't talk about here.


There are many ways for people to self-destruct if they have this bent.

 

[wag123]

But I know people called "puffers", people who have a few hits of weed a half dozen times a day. In other words, they are high all day long. They're unable to stop, making weed their version of your alcohol.

Most of the people I know that are all day "puffers" are using cannabis for medication.
Case in point, I have a close personal friend (one of several people I know) that puffs all day long and never really gets high. He uses it to relieve his considerable pain and it allows him to sleep.
The backstory... 35 years ago he was diagnosed with non-Hodgkin's lymphoma cancer from fighting in Vietnam and being sprayed with Agent Orange. The chemotherapy almost killed him. He survived but his body was badly damaged by the chemo, he was in constant 24/7 pain and couldn't sleep. He was on massive doses of Vicodin 24/7 for over 30 years just to get by day to day. He had a stroke a couple of years ago and was hospitalized. While in the hospital they didn't give him his Vicodin and he went through a major withdrawal. This was VERY SERIOUS and he nearly died from it. After he recovered he didn't want to get back on the Vicodin and turned to cannabis to relieve his pain and get some sleep. It worked and he is a MUCH happier and more comfortable person. I see him all the time and as far as I can tell he is never actually high.
Another major advantage of cannabis it that it is not physically addictive (like opioids and alcohol), one can't die from using or abusing it, and there is no physical withdrawal from stopping it's use.
Unfortunately, because cannabis is on the Schedule 1 drug list, meaningful research has not been allowed or done. THIS needs to change!

 

[PWMDMD]

I, too, favor liberty.

My position is not that THC products should be forever illegal. Rather, my position is that before we make them legal, we should understand how they affect the human body, and be able to definitively describe that X% of a product consumed in Y hours equates to a level of Z intoxication. This is for the purpose of addressing the criminality of driving while intoxicated by THC.

Alcohol is well regulated, but that regulation does not directly interfere with those who enjoy it. Alcohol products are accurately labeled for their % content, and we can very well understand that "X" drinks in "Y" hours = "Z" BAC level. (see the link in my previous post)

When we can accurately label THC products for their % content, and predictably understand that "X" mg/ml consumed in "Y" hours = "Z" THCC level, and be able to associate that THCC level to some manner of quantifiable intoxication such that impairment is the high probability result, I'll be OK with legalizing it.

I would agree that consumption in the home isn't as big a problem in terms of risks. But that's not what this thread is about; this is about the dangers of THC intoxication while driving. You're right to "liberty" does have limits when the risks of adverse outcomes reach a predominantly high level in a public format. The key is to adequately define those limits using science and study data, not hyperbole and rhetoric. (not directed at you personally, but as a general statement in this emotional topic).

Interestingly, this level of detail did not exist until AFTER legalization, and while I can not tell you if eating one or half or a third or two of these gummies makes me too impaired to drive, it doesn't matter, because if I have any, I do not drive. I can tell you with a little trial and error I know exactly how one will make me feel and what I can and can't do around the house. I'm totally satisfied with this...

 

[4WD]

The problem that MANY PEOPLE have is that they cannot discern the difference between the two topics:
- what does an intoxicant do to the physiology of the human body?
- what does an intoxicant do to the personality of a human being?

The two are often conflated, and they should not be. Auto accidents are often a culmination of multiple inputs, resulting in a bad output. Vehicle speed, vehicle condition, environmental conditions, human abilities (or lack thereof), human emotion, etc .... These all play into an auto accident. So this is sort of a mathematical equation ... A x B x C x D ... = output. The more inputs, or the greater the magnitude of the inputs, the larger the result. Simply put, angry/aggressive people get into more accidents because of their personality, not their physiology. When their personality is multiplied by alcohol, it has a propensity to increase the likelihood of having an accident. It's not against the law to be grumpy; but it is against the law to be intoxicated behind the wheel.

What alcohol does the human body in terms of physiology is well known, well studied, and accepted legal evidence.
Read this document for a good understanding of the effects of alcohol on humans and auto accidents:
https://ndaa.org/wp-content/uploads/Alcohol-Toxicology.pdf
We know exactly how quickly alcohol enters and exits the human system. The absorption and desorption rates are very consistent, easily tested and legally credible in terms of evidentiary admissibility.

The thing about THC (marijuana) is that there is no large-sample data to show how it affects human physiology; nothing that is accepted by any credible sources such as the FDA, DEA, NHTSA, NIH, etc ... No credible studies have yet shown how THC is the causation of degradation of the human condition ...
- how should THC be quantified in terms of intoxication?
- at what level of THC as a % of quantification does it affect human abilities (both cognitive and physical impairments)
- can THC be "normalized" (standardized) so that in some measure of X units, it can be predicted that Y level of intoxication will result?


What intoxicants do to the body are a different topic than what they do to a personality. DO NOT CONFUSE THE TWO TOPICS.

In many ways the answer to my post 105 bcs I have to deal with both serious policy due to extreme loads, pressures, EHS risks, and chemical hazards - along to raising mostly male children in an “extreme” society -
Well, I often debate this with DINKs of both types of childless marriages - and some say they only respect company policy but in “their own lives” pftt - whatever that means …

 

[4WD]

I don't understand why it would matter. How does knowing the vodka I'm drinking is 40% EtOH help me decide how if I'm "safely impaired" or not to do something? What about red wine? What about beer that can have widely different ABV? What about for my wife who is 1/3 my size? What if she drinks frequently and has high levels of alcohol dehydrogenase in her liver and I do not? How does knowing how much EtOH is in something help me know if I'm too impaired compared to not knowing how much THC? What is the exact consumption level of the above that will put me just under being arrested? I have no idea. Edibles tell you how much THC they have but that gives me no actionable information to determine if I can go use heavy equipment or not.

The only sensible answer is if you consume ANY alcohol or ANY THC then you don't drive or play with the front-end loader. I know this isn't what many people do but again those are the same people who would do it anyway if alcohol or marijuana was illegal and I'm not responsible for other people's irresponsible behaviors.

Simple - a dentist worries with health risks of individuals - but we measure risk by will it be 1, 10, or more than 100 dead - if you have never worked in high risk industries don’t drop ideology on me - I enforce and know why … Can’t have one mistake …

 

[SammyChevelleTypeS3]

Again, not only does it smell gross, but those that smell like it often act a certain way.

If I had to guess how it affected one’s brain while using it, I’d say it basically makes one stupid and slow.

Those traits are probably fine if you’re at home doing nothing, and it doesn’t bother me if people want to do that, but I don’t want to deal with those people, and I really don’t want to drive near them.

I think the dangerous part is it’s pretty obvious if someone is driving drunk, but it’s less obvious if someone is driving while stoned. In the case of drunk drivers, other drivers can report it and police can observe it and pull them over and arrest them. In the case of weed, you might be able to tell, but it’s not immediately obvious until the driver has to do something quickly, or make a fast decision while driving… at which point they may be unable to do so. That can lead to crashes, injuries, or fatalities.

Not to mention the people I observe smelling or acting like they partake in that drug are often not the kind of people that maintain their vehicle properly, to put it gently.

I dont like how in many places "legal or not" non-pot users (even families with kids) have to be exposed to it all over in public, and many times it is juveniles doing it in front of everyone. I did it in the late 60s/70s but we did it undercover and I quit in mid 70s realizing there would be zero constructive life while using that stuff, and it was 100 times weaker than what these kids are using today its reported.

 

[John105]

This is so true.

My wife has never seen me drunk in the nearly 20 years she's known me.

Her brother who recently passed had what ended up being a lethal relationship with alcohol.

Personality plays a big role in this. Not everyone has a healthy relationship with substances, money, and other things we don't talk about here.


There are many ways for people to self-destruct if they have this bent.

I've known my wife since 2006. I've seen her drunk 2X. Once in 2006, once around 2008. I drink beer by myself watching the Flyers or Phillies, usually about 1, if I get crazy which isn't often, 3.

For some reason about 3 weeks ago I say to my wife, you don't drink anymore, can you even remember the last time you had a drink?

She goes, last night (went out with her gf's).

 

[PWMDMD]

Simple - a dentist worries with health risks of individuals - but we measure risk by will it be 1, 10, or more than 100 dead - if you have never worked in high risk industries don’t drop ideology on me - I enforce and know why … Can’t have one mistake …

Touchy much? This is a discussion, if you don't want other opinions SHARED with you based on what you wrote, don't write anything. Besides being obnoxiously condescending and dismissive, what you've written above adds no value to this discussion. In case you just decided to get all hot about my comment and didn't actually absorb the overly rationale point I was trying to make - my point is you should have a ZERO tolerance policy around heavy equipment and that not knowing how much THC is in a clump of weed doesn't really matter when you implement a zero-tolerance policy.

 

[slo town]

I dont like how in many places "legal or not" non-pot users (even families with kids) have to be exposed to it all over in public, and many times it is juveniles doing it in front of everyone. I did it in the late 60s/70s but we did it undercover and I quit in mid 70s realizing there would be zero constructive life while using that stuff, and it was 100 times weaker than what these kids are using today its reported.

And this is one of the big problems today. Today's weed is bio-engineered for maximum strength by highly educated botanists, PhDs. Today's weed has THC levels approaching 40%!

Scott

 

[4WD]

Touchy much? This is a discussion, if you don't want other opinions SHARED with you based on what you wrote, don't write anything. Besides being obnoxiously condescending and dismissive, what you've written above adds no value to this discussion.

Nonsense and you know it … It’s late where I am - Later …

 

[PWMDMD]

Nonsense and you know it … It’s late where I am - Later …

I repeat, your temper tantrum added nothing to the discussion.

 

[Astro14]

Let’s take a break, gents. I will unlock the thread tonight.

 

[dogememe]

On a slightly different topic, I thought it was interesting when I heard that coffee pretty much brought advancement to society because people replaced beer with it and so instead of being drunk they were clear minded.

I wonder if all this weed is negatively affecting the advancement of our society?

Not being negative, just curious.

 

[slo town]

Most of the people I know that are all day "puffers" are using cannabis for medication.
Case in point, I have a close personal friend (one of several people I know) that puffs all day long and never really gets high. He uses it to relieve his considerable pain and it allows him to sleep.
The backstory... 35 years ago he was diagnosed with non-Hodgkin's lymphoma cancer from fighting in Vietnam and being sprayed with Agent Orange. The chemotherapy almost killed him. He survived but his body was badly damaged by the chemo, he was in constant 24/7 pain and couldn't sleep. He was on massive doses of Vicodin 24/7 for over 30 years just to get by day to day. He had a stroke a couple of years ago and was hospitalized. While in the hospital they didn't give him his Vicodin and he went through a major withdrawal. This was VERY SERIOUS and he nearly died from it. After he recovered he didn't want to get back on the Vicodin and turned to cannabis to relieve his pain and get some sleep. It worked and he is a MUCH happier and more comfortable person. I see him all the time and as far as I can tell he is never actually high.
Another major advantage of cannabis it that it is not physically addictive (like opioids and alcohol), one can't die from using or abusing it, and there is no physical withdrawal from stopping it's use.
Unfortunately, because cannabis is on the Schedule 1 drug list, meaningful research has not been allowed or done. THIS needs to change!

What you describe is a valuable use of cannabis.

With respect to Vicodin, imagine it being sold over the counter like ibuprofen. If it were sold OTC people would take it for even the slightest discomfort. If it were OTC a significant portion of the population would become addicted to it very quickly. Opioids are as addictive as cocaine, of which I am familiar with its additive powers. See my previous post.

But, yes, medical marijuana, I'm all for it.

Scott

 

[sloinker]

My 91 year old father and 92 year old mother in law both use a gummy at night to help get a full night of relaxed sleep. My dad isn't aware he is being dosed but my mother in law does. She was a lifelong hater of marijuana but loved her wine. Now she is a huge proponent of both.

 

[Torrid]

Marijuana stays in your system, does this mean people had it in their system or they were actually high? I don’t know of a test to see if you are actually high. Seems like propaganda.

This was my question. Sounds like a completely made up statistic. There's no way there's that many marijuana smokers. It's not that mainstream even legalized in the few states it is legal.

I wonder how many drivers are speeding when they cause a traffic death? My guess is a lot of 'em.
Regardless, driving while under the influence is bad news. The main reason I quit drinking 37 years ago was I knew one day I could wake up in jail having hurt or killed someone and not even remember it.

For me, alcohol is poison. I never wanna take another drink as long as I live.

I totally understand this. I am a bit of a drinker myself on a day off from work, but if I ever saw myself at a danger of being under the influence where I would feel the need to drive or it was affecting my obligations I would immediately cease to have another drop. I think this could be the one thing that keeps me in check.

 

[wpod]

Willie Nelson and Meryl Haggard did pretty good as dope smokers. I don't smoke of drink as I know I am dumb enough with out any help.

 

[sloinker]

In my own experience, when drinking, restraint and common sense seems to abandon me. Climbing into a car after a few highballs? Many times. I used to get blackout drunk, wake up in my own bed usually. Always without any money and sometimes with bruises and loose teeth, black eyes. After one of these incidents I quit drinking cold turkey. Went 12 years without a drop. Decided on a hot day mowing the lawn to drink one of the old lady's beers. Tasted so good I drank another. Stopped again for two years. Now I occasionally will have a beer or glass of wine, bourbon and ginger ale. We are talking a couple 3 times a year and only one drink. Unlike a large portion of my family, many now deceased. I don't believe I was an alcoholic but I was on the path to becoming one. Marijuana is a different story. I partied once maybe twice a week in my teens until early 20's. If you wanted chicks, you needed to party imo. Come 1982 the military started urinalysis. I stopped, every job since also tested. I stayed stopped for 40 years. Come retirement last year I partook twice over a couple weeks. It wasn't what I remembered. Will I do it again? Most likely, but maybe with a strain that doesn't leave me comatose like the weed given to me. I severely doubt it will ever become a regular thing like back in the day.