0W20 vs 5W30 in 1999 E46 323i

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All that said, it might be better to run a 5w-30 synthetic, as I already said above, any name brand one, just to get a little more margin of safety in there. So the 0w-20 example shows how people have done it, you could do it, yet many of us suspect going heavier is safer.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: CrawfishTails
If you do run 0w-20, put in some Ceratec by Liquimoly for added protection just in case,
Oh great, so start with an inappropriate oil and then attempt to make up for it with oil additives (which the engine manufacturer strongly advises against). Why not just run proper oil to begin with?
Why use a one-size-fits-all oil when you can formulate it yourself just for your vehicle? grin
 
Originally Posted By: CrawfishTails
It's certainly sensible to the "safe" thing and run an LL-01 oil in a BMW if you're concerned. However, I really don't think a good synthetic 0w-20 will do any worse in a BMW engine if you want a little extra horsepower and fuel economy. Yes the Ceratec Liquimoly stuff is a great product and can intervene when boundary lubrication occurs, as it always does in every engine in the rings, startup, and cam lobes-followers. I view Ceratec as adding some margin to the oil, so its a good idea to use it.
Please tell us all, what does synthetic have to do when it comes to meeting the minimum HTHS requirement. Remember it's 3.5 vs 2.6 for a Xw20 oil you're recommending? Now, what margin are you talking about? You have no idea what kind of safety margin BMW assumed when specifying their oil HTHS of 3.5, yet you are perfectly fine with recommending an HTHS 2.6 oil with some additive? Please stop posting this nonsense.
 
Originally Posted By: BigmanXD
Hello everyone I'm brand new to the forum and have been looking for my topic on the forums and haven't been able to find it so forgive me if this is already a topic. However, after completing the BOTOG university and coming to the conclusion that thinner oil is better especially after reading http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-105/ I'm still unsure about it. I currently own a 1999 BMW 323i E46 with 193,456 miles without any oil leaks or consumption that has been babied its whole life with synthetic oil and no mechanical problems what so ever. I live in Florida where the average temperature is pretty high and was wondering if it would be totally fine running a 0W20 in a car that the owners manual recommends a synthetic 5W30. Finally, if the 0W20 is ok to use in my vehicle can the same be said to all vehicles recommending 5W30 if they have been babied like mine. Thanks for your help! Bigman
So as others have said to go back and re-read the motor oil university articles, but I haven't seen where anyone broke it out more clearly for you. Thinner is not always better at operational temperature, thinner is better below operational temperature as long as it's not thinner than what the oil is supposed to be at operational temperature. So in your example, you use a 5w-30 because your vehicle requires a 30 weight oil. However, when your vehicle sits unused and the oil cools down, the oil starts thickening up. The colder it gets, the thicker it gets. When you start up your vehicle, it immediately starts warming up and getting back to operational temperature and therefore the correct viscosity that the engineers designed the engine for. However, while it's colder than operational temperature, it's thicker and therefore doesn't flow as easily, provides more resistance, and possibly isn't getting into the small tolerances within your engine that it will get to when it thins out to it's appropriate viscosity at operational temperature. So thinner being better means that getting an oil that doesn't thicken up as much when cool/cold is better, because that means it's starting off closer to operational temperature, and should (in theory) get to the correct thickness faster. So in your instance, it's not about going from a 5w-30 to a 0w-20 because at operational temperature the 0w-20 is a 20 weight oil, and your vehicle operates on a 30 weight oil. So what you want is a 5w-30 that doesn't thicken up as much (PP and QSUD both seem to be good in this area), or you want one that's designed to resist thickening down to very low temperatures such as a 0w-30. I hope that made sense. Also, some people disagree and just say to only use thin oils, so I'm sure someone will come along and explain why I'm wrong about what I wrote. But go back and re-read the oil articles and I think it will become more clear. If I had your vehicle, I'd use a quality 5w-30 or 0w-40. In fact, when I see German sedan, there's something in me that automatically defaults to 0w-40 so I'd probably run M1 0w-40 or the new Castrol 0w-40.
 
High again and thank you for all your responses! To answer a couple questions about the vehicle it's previous and only other owner was a dealer mechanic who did all his own maintenance on the vehicle with all the records and receipts to prove it. That being said, the only reason I even thought about putting a 0w20 in it was again because of the m105 article on this website which is the #1 oil forum so I definitely had an open mind to it.Further more, I orginally wanted to GC 0w40 in it but was hesitant because of the thicker weight. So finally would it be ok to use the GC 0w40 in my car spect for 5W30 and should I trust what BITOG university has to say. Thank you
 
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Originally Posted By: BigmanXD
So finally would it be ok to use the GC 0w40 in my car spect for 5W30
Your car was not "spect for 5W30." Just use any oil meeting the LL-01 spec (which includes GC 0w-40) and be done with it. You're way over-thinking this.
 
Yeah the GC 0w-30 is a thick 30 weight, and the Castrol 0w-40 is a thin 40 weight. Personally I'd go with the 0w-40 because it's available in a larger container at a lower price per quart.
 
Originally Posted By: BigmanXD
Hello everyone I'm brand new to the forum and have been looking for my topic on the forums and haven't been able to find it so forgive me if this is already a topic. However, after completing the BOTOG university and coming to the conclusion that thinner oil is better especially after reading http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-105/ I'm still unsure about it. I currently own a 1999 BMW 323i E46 with 193,456 miles without any oil leaks or consumption that has been babied its whole life with synthetic oil and no mechanical problems what so ever. I live in Florida where the average temperature is pretty high and was wondering if it would be totally fine running a 0W20 in a car that the owners manual recommends a synthetic 5W30. Finally, if the 0W20 is ok to use in my vehicle can the same be said to all vehicles recommending 5W30 if they have been babied like mine. Thanks for your help! Bigman
Welcome Bigman. Silly question though after 193k on 5w-30, no leaks all good etc. you want to go thinner. +1 for all the NO answers. BITOG university course should be modified based on feedback from here for avoidance of doubt.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: CrawfishTails
It's certainly sensible to the "safe" thing and run an LL-01 oil in a BMW if you're concerned. However, I really don't think a good synthetic 0w-20 will do any worse in a BMW engine if you want a little extra horsepower and fuel economy. Yes the Ceratec Liquimoly stuff is a great product and can intervene when boundary lubrication occurs, as it always does in every engine in the rings, startup, and cam lobes-followers. I view Ceratec as adding some margin to the oil, so its a good idea to use it.
Please tell us all, what does synthetic have to do when it comes to meeting the minimum HTHS requirement. Remember it's 3.5 vs 2.6 for a Xw20 oil you're recommending? Now, what margin are you talking about? You have no idea what kind of safety margin BMW assumed when specifying their oil HTHS of 3.5, yet you are perfectly fine with recommending an HTHS 2.6 oil with some additive? Please stop posting this nonsense.
KrisZ, you have evidently still not heard of BMW's own migration to 20 oils. They are a conservative, slow-moving company, yet they have LL-12 FE, LL-14 FE, and a revised LL-01 FE, all which spec lower-HTHS oils. They are catching up with Ford, Chrysler, GM, Mazda, Toyota, Jaguar, Honda, all which run 2.6 HTHS oils without incident, many times in engines that used to "demand" a 30 oil. BMW back-specs LL-01 FE to all current engines that they used to "insist had to have" 3.5 HTHS, so they are backing down, and so am I, from high HTHS in many, many cases. Also, you need to educate yourself on the many technical papers I've seen where synthetic oils perform better than conventional in Boundary Lubrication conditions, and the effects of moly-boron (Ceratec) AW-FM additives. Also, you haven't seen an E60 BMW run 0w-20 with no ill effects like I have for three years. Also, you didn't even notice or acknowledge that I actually recommend using a modern synthetic (any name brand) 5w-30 or 0w-40, and I do this based on the extensive dexos1 tests I know of that all the big name brands meet in a synthetic xW-30 flavor, and of course I've said LL-01 is fine, just a bit heavy, to use. KrisZ, I sincerely hope you read a lot of engineering papers and review the news of BMW trends before naively answering these posts.
 
Originally Posted By: CrawfishTails
KrisZ, you have evidently still not heard of BMW's own migration to 20 oils. They are a conservative, slow-moving company, yet they have LL-12 FE, LL-14 FE, and a revised LL-01 FE, all which spec lower-HTHS oils. They are catching up with Ford, Chrysler, GM, Mazda, Toyota, Jaguar, Honda, all which run 2.6 HTHS oils without incident, many times in engines that used to "demand" a 30 oil. BMW back-specs LL-01 FE to all current engines that they used to "insist had to have" 3.5 HTHS, so they are backing down, and so am I, from high HTHS in many, many cases. Also, you need to educate yourself on the many technical papers I've seen where synthetic oils perform better than conventional in Boundary Lubrication conditions, and the effects of moly-boron (Ceratec) AW-FM additives. Also, you haven't seen an E60 BMW run 0w-20 with no ill effects like I have for three years. Also, you didn't even notice or acknowledge that I actually recommend using a modern synthetic (any name brand) 5w-30 or 0w-40, and I do this based on the extensive dexos1 tests I know of that all the big name brands meet in a synthetic xW-30 flavor, and of course I've said LL-01 is fine, just a bit heavy, to use. KrisZ, I sincerely hope you read a lot of engineering papers and review the news of BMW trends before naively answering these posts.
I've not seen any evidence of BMW back-spec'ing any of their previous engines to the new FE grades. They have produced engines that call for/allow thinner lubricants and those lubricants are the ones that carry the FE (Fuel Economy) spec. The LL-01 FE spec is an old spec and discussed in this thread: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2688085 QP also posts a nice chart (the same one he posted in this thread) in there showing which engines allow which approvals. There is some overlap. Some engines can use LL-04, LL-01 and LL-01 FE. Others are more specific. The approval/allowance of oils not >=3.5cP is not a new thing for BMW. As QP point out in that thread, it had been going on for at least 10 years at that point (2012). They have continued that and now have some engines that call for a 20 weight as well. I think you'll find that the engines you think were back-spec'd are on that chart for either approval. The OP's engines isn't one of those engines though wink The applicability of the spec's is covered quite well here: http://www.lubrita.com/news/195/680/Lubrita-Engine-Oil-Recommendations-for-BMW-cars/
Quote:
Quality levels / application and overview of BMW oils specifications: "BMW Longlife-01" (LL-01) • This quality is the minimum requirement for all BMW gasoline engines from model year 2002 and for BMW diesel engines without particle filters from model year 2003. • All older BMW engines can use this quality. • To avoid customer irritation, no product names containing the designation "diesel" are permitted. • For BMW M GmbH engines, this quality is only permitted in new, designated models with S55 or S63 engines. "BMW Longlife-01 FE" (LL-01 FE) • Due to the low HTHS viscosity in comparison to the BMW Longlife-01 specification, these oils may only be used for the BMW gasoline engines released for this oil. At present, these include all current gasoline engines (N1x, N2x, N4x, N63, N74). • For BMW M GmbH engines, this quality is only permitted in new, designated models with S55 or S63 engines. "BMW Longlife-04" (LL-04) • These oils are permitted for all BMW diesel engines with or without particle filters. • This quality also applies to BMW gasoline engines. At present, the type approval is limited to the EU area together with Norway, Switzerland and Liechtenstein. • For BMW M GmbH engines, this quality is only permitted in new, designated models with S55 or S63 engines in the EU area together with Norway, Switzerland and Liechtenstein. "BMW Longlife-12 FE" (LL-12 FE) • Due to the reduced HTHS viscosity in comparison to the BMW Longlife-04 specification, these oils may only be used for the BMW diesel and gasoline engines released for this oil. • These oils are suitable for new BMW diesel engines from model year 2013, although only for specially released engines in accordance with the release list. Essentially, the Nx7K1, Nx7U1 and Nx7O1 engines have been released at present. This quality is generally not permitted for engines with 2 or 3 exhaust turbochargers. • This quality also applies to BMW gasoline engines. At present, the type approval is limited to the EU area together with Norway, Switzerland and Liechtenstein. • For BMW M GmbH engines, this quality is only permitted in new, designated models with S55 or S63 engines in the EU area together with Norway, Switzerland and Liechtenstein. "BMW Longlife-14 FE+" (LL-14 FE+) • Due to the low HTHS viscosity of 2.6 mPa・s, these oils may only be used in BMW gasoline engines released for them. • These oils are only suitable for new N20 and Bx8 gasoline engines from model year 2014. • At present, the type approval is limited to the EU area together with Norway, Switzerland and Liechtenstein as well as the US market. • This quality is not permitted for BMW M GmbH engines. – SAE viscosities: Viscosity shall correspond to one of the viscosity categories SAE 0W-20, SAE 0W-30, SAE 0W-40, SAE 5W-20, SAE 5W-30 or SAE 5W-40, where the following conditions apply to the individual specifications: "BMW Longlife-01": SAE 0W-30, SAE 0W-40, SAE 5W-30, SAE 5W-40 "BMW Longlife-01 FE": SAE 0W-30, SAE 5W-30 "BMW Longlife-04": SAE 0W-30, SAE 0W-40, SAE 5W-30, SAE 5W-40 "BMW Longlife-12 FE": SAE 5W-20, SAE 0W-30, SAE 5W-30 "BMW Longlife-14 FE+": SAE 0W-20, SAE 5W-20
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I've not seen any evidence of BMW back-spec'ing any of their previous engines to the new FE grades. They have produced engines that call for/allow thinner lubricants and those lubricants are the ones that carry the FE (Fuel Economy) spec. The LL-01 FE spec is an old spec and discussed in this thread: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2688085
It is notable that BMW skips the M52TU engine for LL-01 FE. I always considered the move to FE as a spec that came later to revise the earlier LL-01 slightly. The fact remains that BMW doesn't always stick to "HTHS 3.5" like many would have us believe. I was just addressing that misunderstanding. LL-01 FE is HTHS 2.9 (Castrol SLX FE had that hths), which now puts it in the category of quality synthetics that meet tough standards already in 2015, noting that dexos1 and ACEA tests have some overlap, and the big name brand synth oils in the 30 weights perform to those standards whichever brand you choose. BMW conservatism aside, there is really nothing special or different that sets BMW engines apart from GM, Ford, Chrysler, Mazda, Honda, Toyota technology where low-HTHS oils are used all the time for everyday driving.
 
Originally Posted By: CrawfishTails
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I've not seen any evidence of BMW back-spec'ing any of their previous engines to the new FE grades. They have produced engines that call for/allow thinner lubricants and those lubricants are the ones that carry the FE (Fuel Economy) spec. The LL-01 FE spec is an old spec and discussed in this thread: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2688085
It is notable that BMW skips the M52TU engine for LL-01 FE. I always considered the move to FE as a spec that came later to revise the earlier LL-01 slightly. The fact remains that BMW doesn't always stick to "HTHS 3.5" like many would have us believe. I was just addressing that misunderstanding. LL-01 FE is HTHS 2.9 (Castrol SLX FE had that hths), which now puts it in the category of quality synthetics that meet tough standards already in 2015, noting that dexos1 and ACEA tests have some overlap, and the big name brand synth oils in the 30 weights perform to those standards whichever brand you choose. BMW conservatism aside, there is really nothing special or different that sets BMW engines apart from GM, Ford, Chrysler, Mazda, Honda, Toyota technology where low-HTHS oils are used all the time for everyday driving.
BMW, like Mercedes, designs for "Autobahn" usage, which of course does not mirror the American driving style. My M5 will do 190Mph all day long singing at 7,000RPM. This is not a design parameter for an American sedan, but it is for BMW. Ergo, this is what they test and develop for, which is subsequently why the higher HTHS oils are recommended for many engine families. Not all of them of course. Like with a big Ford, some may not require a >=3.5cP HTHS to sit on the limiter for awhile. In those cases, BMW allows a lighter grade. Power density is a factor, as is the age of the engine design. That's why the allowance for a variety of specs varies by engine family. Ford does something similar with their WSS specs, though we see how they are more applicable to the American market in terms of how they are applied. The BOSS 302 and GT Track Pack both call for a 5w-50 due to anticipated usage profile. This is more akin to the BMW and Mercedes school of thinking for an engine with that sump size and power density.
 
Originally Posted By: CrawfishTails
I always considered the move to FE as a spec that came later to revise the earlier LL-01 slightly.
Both LL-01 and LL-01 FE came around the same time, in 2001, hence the '01' in the name of the spec.
 
Lets also not forget these engines have direct contact from camshaft to bucket lifter - similar to 'solid lifter' engines which require higher levels of ZDDP to prevent valvetrain wear. Granted, the Germans surface harden their cams & cranks, but it's still not a good idea to run 'any' run of the mill 5W-30, even if you do think thats an appropriate weight (which I don't).
 
BMW dealers offer a BMW-branded Castrol 5W-30 that meets BMW's specs. It isn't the same oil as the 5W-30 syns sold at Walmart. It's an A3 oil, with HTHS viscosity of at least 3.5. If it were my car and I wanted to save a few bucks, I'd use a blend 10W-40 like Maxlife or Defy and change it at conservative intervals. If I wanted to use the correct oil, M1 0W-40 is only a ten spot or so more expensive than either of the above at Walmart and can be run longer. You live in a place where winter is little more than something that happens in the north. There is no advantage to your engine in using thinner than recommended oils and there might be real consequences.
 
Well, if I was driving it from a cold start for about a mile, and then shutting it down for hours, and repeating, I'm sure a 20 grade would be harmless. Outside of that, stick with something of specified viscosity.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
Well, if I was driving it from a cold start for about a mile, and then shutting it down for hours, and repeating, I'm sure a 20 grade would be harmless. Outside of that, stick with something of specified viscosity.
Better than "harmless", it would provide superior lubrication. And even on a hot summers day I don't think a mile is going to get the oil up to temperature. When the 0W-16 grade becomes available that's the grade to use for short commutes. Of course for real winter driving (doesn't apply to the OP of course in FL) when the ambient temp's stay below freezing, a 0W-20 is an excellent choice for cold blooded NA Bimmers that struggle to get oil temp's much above 80C even on the longest drives.
 
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