Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: 1965Mustang
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: AEHaas
So often people say that an engine from the past, say 1980, required a 10W-30 oil and therefore today we should use that exact same oil. Others even say that the oil was SE API rated and therefore that's what should be used today. Some complain about the difficulty on obtaining those SE oils as "required" by their engines.
My feeling is that some are stuck in the past and have little knowledge of the API ratings and their meanings. And is oil of today no better than from 40 years ago?
My thinking is that todays oils are far superior than those of the past. And that using the 10 PSI/1,000 RPM "rule" is a good ball park as to where to begin thinking about the appropriate viscosity for the job. I also believe that using an oil that is a grade thinner than you might at first think is most likely safe for most engines. And maybe better than using one a grade thicker.
aehaas
The engine in question doesn't have what most would call a rigid bottom-end (I have a lot of experience with 302's). Thin-wall castings, thin main-webbing....etc. But it DOES have a good oiling system!
Why do I mention this? Well, when you have a non-deep skirt block like that of this Windsor, under high load and RPM, things move around. And because things move around, you may need a little more "cushion" there then what you would need at the same power level in the same engine with a more rigid bottom-end setup..... Like say a Ford Motorsport "R" block, BOSS 302 block, Dart block....etc. Which all have heavily beefed up main bearing areas, 4-bolt main caps....etc.
One of the things Ford did when they migrated from the SBF to the Modular was to heavily strengthen the bottom-end, making it FAR more rigid. The main-cap area on a Modular doesn't move. This was part of the reason Ford was able to specify the 5w20 grade going forward. Of course this was also in conjunction with a more modern, much higher volume gyrator-style oil pump instead of the standard cam-driven gear pump found in the Windsor engines it replaced.
I'm not telling him to run 20w50 (though there'd be plenty of Windsor guys who would), but I think stepping up to something like M1 0w40, particularly if he has a stock-volume oil pump in an engine that has upgraded heads/cam/intake, is a wise choice based on how I've seen it perform in this application.
Excellent and informative explanation. You seem to have a lot of experience with sb Fords. I wanted to clarify one point you made to see if you think I should run 0W30 instead of 0W40. I have a Meling HO oil pump, not stock. Also the car is never started outside or left outside to get cold. I live in NC, also. Do you still feel a 0W40 is the best choice? I drive it very hard. When I talked to the tech at Amsoil he recommended a 0W30 but you seem to have more first hand experience with small blocks. One last question, why do you feel a HO oil pump is not a good investment? I put in in for just that reason, extra insurance. Thanks again for all the info.
The reason I recommend the 0w40 is because it is a more robust formula than the 0w30 and designed (and certified) for high power density applications.
The 302 is not susceptible to lubricant-related failures with the stock volume oil pump. It has an excellent stock lubrication system that needs no improvement in the vast majority of applications. Even used for road racing, typically all that is upgraded is the oil pan to a baffled and larger capacity version.
The idea that it needs an HV oil pump stems from the same school of thought that it needs 20w50. That "more" is "better". Then you end up with guys needing the hardened ARP oil pump driveshaft because they licorice-sticked their stock one trying to pump 20w50 through an engine designed for a 30-weight with a pump displacing twice what the stock one did.
What the HV oil pump does is spend more time in bypass, dumping oil back in the pan, robbing power and wearing your cam and distributor gears, subsequently throwing off your ignition timing.
About the only time (IMHO) than an HV pump makes sense is if you are running a supercharger that doesn't have a stand-alone lubrication system. The engine (and its lubrication system) was never designed to feed anything beyond what it came fitted with. So tapping into that system to feed a blower steals volume from the rest of the system.
The other thing about a blower is that it heats the oil. A LOT. And the guys I know step up into a 15w40/5w40 or even a 5w50 to keep their hot oil pressure in the 30's when running something like an S-trim with a stock pan. With a larger aftermarket pan, this is likely not necessary (the heavier grade).
Now M1 0w40 is a VERY light 40-weight, almost a heavy 30. So it isn't like you are stepping up into 20w50 land here. You are going just a touch heavier than what the engine called for (10w30) stock, with a more robust additive package, better base stocks and a huge host of testing/certification for extremely high power density euro applications. You simply can't go wrong with it here.
Thanks very much. Guess I needed to hear from you BEFORE I put my engine back together. The HV pump install worries me a little now. I honestly felt I was doing a good thing with the HV pump. I did do one thing correct, I do have an os, baffled oil pan. Can using an HV pump actually cause excessive wear and loss of power? Never heard that but it has been a long time since I built a car. Any options at this point since I just got the car back together and running this week?
Originally Posted By: 1965Mustang
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: AEHaas
So often people say that an engine from the past, say 1980, required a 10W-30 oil and therefore today we should use that exact same oil. Others even say that the oil was SE API rated and therefore that's what should be used today. Some complain about the difficulty on obtaining those SE oils as "required" by their engines.
My feeling is that some are stuck in the past and have little knowledge of the API ratings and their meanings. And is oil of today no better than from 40 years ago?
My thinking is that todays oils are far superior than those of the past. And that using the 10 PSI/1,000 RPM "rule" is a good ball park as to where to begin thinking about the appropriate viscosity for the job. I also believe that using an oil that is a grade thinner than you might at first think is most likely safe for most engines. And maybe better than using one a grade thicker.
aehaas
The engine in question doesn't have what most would call a rigid bottom-end (I have a lot of experience with 302's). Thin-wall castings, thin main-webbing....etc. But it DOES have a good oiling system!
Why do I mention this? Well, when you have a non-deep skirt block like that of this Windsor, under high load and RPM, things move around. And because things move around, you may need a little more "cushion" there then what you would need at the same power level in the same engine with a more rigid bottom-end setup..... Like say a Ford Motorsport "R" block, BOSS 302 block, Dart block....etc. Which all have heavily beefed up main bearing areas, 4-bolt main caps....etc.
One of the things Ford did when they migrated from the SBF to the Modular was to heavily strengthen the bottom-end, making it FAR more rigid. The main-cap area on a Modular doesn't move. This was part of the reason Ford was able to specify the 5w20 grade going forward. Of course this was also in conjunction with a more modern, much higher volume gyrator-style oil pump instead of the standard cam-driven gear pump found in the Windsor engines it replaced.
I'm not telling him to run 20w50 (though there'd be plenty of Windsor guys who would), but I think stepping up to something like M1 0w40, particularly if he has a stock-volume oil pump in an engine that has upgraded heads/cam/intake, is a wise choice based on how I've seen it perform in this application.
Excellent and informative explanation. You seem to have a lot of experience with sb Fords. I wanted to clarify one point you made to see if you think I should run 0W30 instead of 0W40. I have a Meling HO oil pump, not stock. Also the car is never started outside or left outside to get cold. I live in NC, also. Do you still feel a 0W40 is the best choice? I drive it very hard. When I talked to the tech at Amsoil he recommended a 0W30 but you seem to have more first hand experience with small blocks. One last question, why do you feel a HO oil pump is not a good investment? I put in in for just that reason, extra insurance. Thanks again for all the info.
The reason I recommend the 0w40 is because it is a more robust formula than the 0w30 and designed (and certified) for high power density applications.
The 302 is not susceptible to lubricant-related failures with the stock volume oil pump. It has an excellent stock lubrication system that needs no improvement in the vast majority of applications. Even used for road racing, typically all that is upgraded is the oil pan to a baffled and larger capacity version.
The idea that it needs an HV oil pump stems from the same school of thought that it needs 20w50. That "more" is "better". Then you end up with guys needing the hardened ARP oil pump driveshaft because they licorice-sticked their stock one trying to pump 20w50 through an engine designed for a 30-weight with a pump displacing twice what the stock one did.
What the HV oil pump does is spend more time in bypass, dumping oil back in the pan, robbing power and wearing your cam and distributor gears, subsequently throwing off your ignition timing.
About the only time (IMHO) than an HV pump makes sense is if you are running a supercharger that doesn't have a stand-alone lubrication system. The engine (and its lubrication system) was never designed to feed anything beyond what it came fitted with. So tapping into that system to feed a blower steals volume from the rest of the system.
The other thing about a blower is that it heats the oil. A LOT. And the guys I know step up into a 15w40/5w40 or even a 5w50 to keep their hot oil pressure in the 30's when running something like an S-trim with a stock pan. With a larger aftermarket pan, this is likely not necessary (the heavier grade).
Now M1 0w40 is a VERY light 40-weight, almost a heavy 30. So it isn't like you are stepping up into 20w50 land here. You are going just a touch heavier than what the engine called for (10w30) stock, with a more robust additive package, better base stocks and a huge host of testing/certification for extremely high power density euro applications. You simply can't go wrong with it here.
Thanks very much. Guess I needed to hear from you BEFORE I put my engine back together. The HV pump install worries me a little now. I honestly felt I was doing a good thing with the HV pump. I did do one thing correct, I do have an os, baffled oil pan. Can using an HV pump actually cause excessive wear and loss of power? Never heard that but it has been a long time since I built a car. Any options at this point since I just got the car back together and running this week?
