0W-20 vs 5W-20

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: sir1900
We started our Corolla with Quaker State Conventional 5w20 in -31C and no problems here either!


And I did it again last night. Sill no blowup!

The W rating has more to do with how fast the engine turns over than cold start wear factors. The oil geeks and oil companies say you should use an 0W if you have to start without using a pre heater below minus 25C on more than just a few occasions. Most car engines will start down to minus 35C on 5W before you might have trouble, but it often depends on how good your battery is. You won't blow up a good engine trying but you can cook the starter motor.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: Capa
Lots of red herrings in this thread and the thick oil group has yet to show evidence that thin oils don't protect sufficiently. Please, most here don't care about Europe. Again, provide the evidence that US or Japanese engines are catastrophically falling apart due to thin oils. As we say in the States: Put up or shut up!
The thick oil group seem to be blind to the fact that the worldwide industry is moving to thinner oils and has been for several decades. You are living in the past while our modern engines last longer than before with thinner oils.


There is a lot of evidence available in the VW and Ford forums if you want to ask, as plenty of owners experiment with oil grades and check used oil analysis results. I've never seen worse results from changing up a grade, BUT there are plenty of reports available showing increased wear metals and in particular seriously increased oil consumption.
Modern engines don't throw bearings or blow up just because of long term thin oil use, what happens is their oil consumption or leaks increase to a point that the car gets binned OR they keep failing the emissions test. Those problems occur well before a main block failure.
Modern engines do not last as long as the older ones if correctly maintained because nearly every car company has been back specing bearings and other components to save money if they never fail within the extended warranty period, or rather don't fail too often within the warranty period. This type of reverse quality control was never done in the old days, so your new engine might last 200K before you get fed up of pouring cans of oil in it every week, or the neighbours complain about the smoke, but the old classic blocks that were built to last, rather than designed to fail will still be running and many will use far less oil than your high tech set of far Eastern cheap bearings and seals.
If you want to buy a car to last a liftime, then look for a diesel that has a good reputation for long life and was pre DPF. Some will easily do 500K miles before running into main block issues, but you need to buy one in good condition and service it correctly in oil and filter terms. I picked a 10 year old Volvo diesel based on a 1.9 Renault block that has an awesome reputation for long life and at 200K km my used oil analysis shows wear metals that are comparable to the figures that would be normal for a 1.9TD that has just been run in. Renault make bad cars but they used to make very good engine blocks until the reverse engineering game started.
The reason EU research is important is that there are no CAFE regs causing the manufacturers, dealers and US oil web sites to offer incorrect advice, so what you get from an EU site is the truth, not politics. Oddly enough the Germans are more concerned about oil leaks than ultimate fuel economy, partly because the older VW TDI's seem to leak oil if run on a 30 rather than a 40 grade. In environmental terms the extra oil used is much more of a factor than the 1 or 2% saving in fuel.
Every engine is different and some hybrid blocks were designed with light oil use in mind, but very few of the other blocks were, so if you are using 5/20 you should do some homework on what the long term effects will be, because using a better full synthetic 0/20 might be an improvement as they stay in grade longer than the cheaper non synthetics, but for many engines using 0 or 5/20, a move to an 0/30 will produce better long term results after the initial warranty period is over, as new engines don't seem to be adversly effected by light oils unless you push them as hard as the Germans do with sustained max continuous on the autobahn.
Another crazy thing worth checking EU oil web sites for is the big difference in OCI terms between 20 and 30 or 40 grade use, because many cars sold in the us have an OCI half of the EU ones due mostly to the fact that the manufacturer wants the oil to stay in grade and not shear down to a 10 or 15. My own Synthoil shears from a mid 40 to the top of the 30 range after 10K km, but that's not a problem as the original specs listed 30 as OK, but 40 as recommended. For some cars the US dealers are making things worse by using cheaper oils in comparison with the high tech full synthetics in use by the dealers and owners in the EU, so I am not surprised they don't do long OCI's.
It's good to see a few manufacturers selling cars in the US have stayed well clear of the CAFE fiasco and one member pointed out that Subaru I think it was are still listing 5w40 and a longer associated OCI.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: skyship
The W rating has more to do with how fast the engine turns over than cold start wear factors. The oil geeks and oil companies say you should use an 0W if you have to start without using a pre heater below minus 25C on more than just a few occasions.


Sure, it might work better. However, vehicles have been driven in this province a lot longer than 0w-XX and even 5w-XX oils have been available. -40 C in Saskatchewan definitely predated multigrade oils.

The cold, though, is pretty hard on a lot of things. That's why it's nice to have the heated garage.

 

[sir1900]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: sir1900
I don't think anyone here can argue the idea of wanting our vehicles lasting longer. I get the idea of improved gas mileage, but at the end of the day, with the added cost of oil changes (5W conventional to 0W synthetic), where is the long term economical benefit?

The benefit of synthetic 0Wxx over conventional 5Wxx is twice as long OCI. One example is Toyota used to recommend 5K OCI with 5W20 and now it is 10K with 0W20 for some vehicles.

10 quarts conventional 5W20 + 2 oil filters + 2 labors + 2 down times is more expensive than 5 quarts synthetic 0W20 + 1 oil filter + 1 labor + 1 down time.


Point taken, so why did Toyota not change the OCI for Canadian owners? The climate doesn't drastically change when one crosses the border from Detroit to Windsor, or from Blaine, Wa to Vancouver, BC.

 

[SHOZ]

Originally Posted By: gathermewool
Originally Posted By: SHOZ


It's a wonder engines lasted without this. Why is the oil temp sensor just upstream of the VVT solenoid?


Because it's a convenient location for a tap-off?


Much more convenient at the oil filter mount where the oil pressure sensor is.

 

[Cup of Joe]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Another thing is that Japan has a system whereby it's not economical to keep a car on the road for longer than 40,000km or so...the average Japanese cares not for longevity.


This is well known except on this board (no import fans here

) I had a Japanese ZC installed in a car more then a decade ago.

The 1st return for used engines on google. There are pages of returns.
http://www.cjee.com/

Quote:
Motor-vehicle inspection (Japan)
Registration and Cost
Before a test can be administered on a vehicle the owner of the vehicle must call up a shaken center and make an appointment by phone after which the owner must fill out paper work at the center. The cost for the shaken is broken up as follows:

¥1,400 (US$18) for paperwork and processing,
¥21,000 (US$325) Vehicle Registration Fee
24 months of mandatory liability insurance is also required, but it depends on the make of the car

The vehicle is also assesed a weight tax from a graduated scale. [1]
There is a one time recycling fee for the "Recycling Department" with fees being added depending on the vehicle and its intended use (business, personal, commercial, etc.). This usually costs about ¥10,000, and depends on the model of the car.

A typical shaken costs between ¥100,000 (US$1,285) and ¥200,000. (US$2,571) [2]

If the vehicle is in good condition with no mechanical problems, the shaken costs about ¥60,000 (US$770)for kei cars and includes 2 years of compulsory auto insurance. The higher costs quoted above are for regular automobiles, and the prices increase when the car requires repair or when extra fees are paid to third party companies to take the car in for the inspection.[citation needed]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor-vehicle_inspection_(Japan)

The issue is cost and frequency of the inspection process. It is cheaper in the long run to purchase a new car every couple of years.

 

[Capa]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
There are engineering compromises that are being made in the push to economy, and those changes expressly reduce the "design margin", in the bearings in particular...it's plain engineering fact.

Yes they are lasting longer...everyone's are, thick and thin alike...that they are lasting longer, and they are using thinner oils is not demonstrative that longer and thinner oils are linked in logic.

You have yet to prove that they would last longer than using thicker oils...or provide evidence that these thicker oils would produce "piles of failed engines".


So, let's agree on a couple of points:
1) Using thicker oils in Europe, Australia, etc has not resulted in a pile of failed engines.
2) Using thinner oils in the US and Japan has not resulted in a pile of failed engines.
3) In the US, we hold on to our vehicles longer and, hence, our vehicles have more miles than their counterparts in Europe, Australia, etc.
4) With each passing decade, auto manufacturers are moving towards thinner and thinner oils.

You thick oil guys keep on spreading your FUD about thinner oils and more engine wear, more oil leaks, more oil consumption, etc. and yet you try to ignore and avoid the big, fat elephant in the room---that our vehicles in the US with their thinner oils are outlasting your vehicles with their thicker oils in Europe and Australia, lol!

 

[Trav]

There is a major flaw with your argument.
You are assuming that failed engines are the cause of Europeans and other Countries changing their cars.
It isn't. In most European countries very strict vehicle inspection laws and the high cost of repairs condemn many more cars than in the US.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Trav
There is a major flaw with your argument.
You are assuming that failed engines are the cause of Europeans and other Countries changing their cars.
It isn't. In most European countries very strict vehicle inspection laws and the high cost of repairs condemn many more cars than in the US.



Does that mean if there is rot under a car it could be pulled of the road? Will marginal ball joints, or bad front end parts get a car pulled off the road? If so then many of the US "beaters" that we keep running to preserve our garage Queens would be condemned, or forced into costly repairs?

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Trav
There is a major flaw with your argument.
You are assuming that failed engines are the cause of Europeans and other Countries changing their cars.
It isn't. In most European countries very strict vehicle inspection laws and the high cost of repairs condemn many more cars than in the US.



Does that mean if there is rot under a car it could be pulled of the road? Will marginal ball joints, or bad front end parts get a car pulled off the road? If so then many of the US "beaters" that we keep running to preserve our garage Queens would be condemned, or forced into costly repairs?


When they start tapping under the car with a pointed hammer and find any hole it must be repaired by an approved garage not at home with Bondo.
Any welding done cannot be covered and must be inspected for weld integrity by the TÜV before filler and paint.
Anything not in top condition will fail the car, even tires that don't carry the correct speed rating or size is an automatic fail.

95% of the cars i work on in the US would not pass the German TÜV. Even my pristine GTP would fail because it has visible rust on the oil pan and the filler tube even though there are no leaks.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Does that mean if there is rot under a car it could be pulled of the road? Will marginal ball joints, or bad front end parts get a car pulled off the road? If so then many of the US "beaters" that we keep running to preserve our garage Queens would be condemned, or forced into costly repairs?


If you have a chance to watch episodes of "Wheeler Dealers" on Velocity channel, I would recommend it. They talk at length on there, depending on the particular project, about the various "MOT fails" and various points about the car that would not pass inspection. Most of the cars they have on the show are in better condition than a lot of the junk I see running around here.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Does that mean if there is rot under a car it could be pulled of the road? Will marginal ball joints, or bad front end parts get a car pulled off the road? If so then many of the US "beaters" that we keep running to preserve our garage Queens would be condemned, or forced into costly repairs?


If you have a chance to watch episodes of "Wheeler Dealers" on Velocity channel, I would recommend it. They talk at length on there, depending on the particular project, about the various "MOT fails" and various points about the car that would not pass inspection. Most of the cars they have on the show are in better condition than a lot of the junk I see running around here.


I don't get that channel.

There are a lot of death traps on the roads in the US that's for sure.

 

[AEHaas]

I do not buy it. It is said that there is a savings of Billions of CAFE dollars by getting 0.5 more MPG in a car that already gets 30 MPG. I traded in my 5,000 pound 2004 Ford Expedition that got around 14.5 MPG - for a 2011 extended wheelbase 7,000 pound version. It has the same engine but is now a 6 speed. I also noticed more tuning chambers in the all plastic intake system of the engine.

I am now getting 18.5 MPG and the truck is more powerful and faster. Though I rarely tow anything the truck is frequently full of stuff to load it down.

It seems as though they could save Trillions with better tuning and more efficient transmissions. If it was that important to get better fuel efficiency then why are they spending all their efforts on motor oils. This does not make sense to me, sorry.

aehaas

PS - the EPA ratings went from 12-16 to 16-20 MPG.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: Capa
Originally Posted By: Shannow
There are engineering compromises that are being made in the push to economy, and those changes expressly reduce the "design margin", in the bearings in particular...it's plain engineering fact.

Yes they are lasting longer...everyone's are, thick and thin alike...that they are lasting longer, and they are using thinner oils is not demonstrative that longer and thinner oils are linked in logic.

You have yet to prove that they would last longer than using thicker oils...or provide evidence that these thicker oils would produce "piles of failed engines".


So, let's agree on a couple of points:
1) Using thicker oils in Europe, Australia, etc has not resulted in a pile of failed engines.
2) Using thinner oils in the US and Japan has not resulted in a pile of failed engines.
3) In the US, we hold on to our vehicles longer and, hence, our vehicles have more miles than their counterparts in Europe, Australia, etc.
4) With each passing decade, auto manufacturers are moving towards thinner and thinner oils.

You thick oil guys keep on spreading your FUD about thinner oils and more engine wear, more oil leaks, more oil consumption, etc. and yet you try to ignore and avoid the big, fat elephant in the room---that our vehicles in the US with their thinner oils are outlasting your vehicles with their thicker oils in Europe and Australia, lol!


What you have not considered is that the CAFE thin oil game is fairly recent, so the main effects so far are high oil consumption and leaks. The real troubles will start after the extended warranty is over for the 5/20 users.
The idea of US vehicles outlasting EU ones is not correct as vehicles sold off because they are out of warranty often finish up in other countries. It's rare for a vehicle to be sold because the main block is failing, but the inspection standards and company lease agreements tend to work in favour of a new car every 3 to 5 years in Germany. Cars in the EU also lead a much tougher life than those in the US, as we do a lot more short trips in particular. Suspension, exhaust and brake problems are the main inspection related areas that tend to result in folks trading in their car before they get some big bills. Cam belt service costs are also interesting for some higher performance cars.
In reality we are heading towards the disposable car or truck, because the latest computer programs do help a manufacturer figure out how long new components will last in conjunction with test rig data and if they last longer than the extended warranty they find a cheaper part and run the tests and software again. This means that new cars might look better than old ones but when you look in detail at all the specs you will realise they are designed to fail, not to last. The light oil game has just added to the new reverse quality control era as the new engines often use cheaper bearings than the same model had only the previous year or so and to cap it all the new emissions game has made things worse with the DPF in particular complicating the task for the engine oil companies.
In environmental terms the US leads the world in wasting engine oil, filters and fuel, but what is really crazy is that just as the 3K OCI myth was starting to die, along comes the CAFE team and although well intentioned they have caused the car manufacturers selling cars in the US to spec thin oils and short OCI's. Some of those manufacturers were close to using the same oil specs and OCI figures as are used in the EU, but have now given up because the bean counters took control. The average OCI figure in Germany is 20K km, which is more than double the OCI figure in the US and it is likely that that situation will not change because of the thin oil game.

 

[Cup of Joe]

Originally Posted By: AEHaas
I do not buy it. It is said that there is a savings of Billions of CAFE dollars by getting 0.5 more MPG in a car that already gets 30 MPG. I traded in my 5,000 pound 2004 Ford Expedition that got around 14.5 MPG - for a 2011 extended wheelbase 7,000 pound version. It has the same engine but is now a 6 speed. I also noticed more tuning chambers in the all plastic intake system of the engine.

I am now getting 18.5 MPG and the truck is more powerful and faster. Though I rarely tow anything the truck is frequently full of stuff to load it down.

It seems as though they could save Trillions with better tuning and more efficient transmissions. If it was that important to get better fuel efficiency then why are they spending all their efforts on motor oils. This does not make sense to me, sorry.

aehaas

PS - the EPA ratings went from 12-16 to 16-20 MPG.


Transmission and engine tuning are more effective for larger gains. It does however take time and resouces to develop new multi-speed transmissions with proper tuning. I say proper tuning because the 6 speed auto im my wifes Escape sucks and its a 2012. The mileage with the 6 speed and drive by wire may have improved but the transmission performance has suffered resulting in increased dealer visits and complaints over performance.

You cannot back spec a transmission.

 

[Capa]

Originally Posted By: skyship

What you have not considered is that the CAFE thin oil game is fairly recent, so the main effects so far are high oil consumption and leaks. The real troubles will start after the extended warranty is over for the 5/20 users.
The idea of US vehicles outlasting EU ones is not correct as vehicles sold off because they are out of warranty often finish up in other countries. It's rare for a vehicle to be sold because the main block is failing, but the inspection standards and company lease agreements tend to work in favour of a new car every 3 to 5 years in Germany. Cars in the EU also lead a much tougher life than those in the US, as we do a lot more short trips in particular. Suspension, exhaust and brake problems are the main inspection related areas that tend to result in folks trading in their car before they get some big bills. Cam belt service costs are also interesting for some higher performance cars.
In reality we are heading towards the disposable car or truck, because the latest computer programs do help a manufacturer figure out how long new components will last in conjunction with test rig data and if they last longer than the extended warranty they find a cheaper part and run the tests and software again. This means that new cars might look better than old ones but when you look in detail at all the specs you will realise they are designed to fail, not to last. The light oil game has just added to the new reverse quality control era as the new engines often use cheaper bearings than the same model had only the previous year or so and to cap it all the new emissions game has made things worse with the DPF in particular complicating the task for the engine oil companies.
In environmental terms the US leads the world in wasting engine oil, filters and fuel, but what is really crazy is that just as the 3K OCI myth was starting to die, along comes the CAFE team and although well intentioned they have caused the car manufacturers selling cars in the US to spec thin oils and short OCI's. Some of those manufacturers were close to using the same oil specs and OCI figures as are used in the EU, but have now given up because the bean counters took control. The average OCI figure in Germany is 20K km, which is more than double the OCI figure in the US and it is likely that that situation will not change because of the thin oil game.


Your first point is again spreading FUD without any evidence at all. Where is the evidence for all of the consumption issues and oil leaks caused by thin oils? Please stop with these baseless FUD assertions. Also, you assume that thin oils are a recent trend in the US. Again, this is wrong. There are many members here that have run 5W-20 for many, many years and for over 200,000-300,000 miles. My 1999 Lexus GS 400 has had 0W-40, 0W-30, and 0W-20, all yearly OCI's with absolutely no consumption issues in that V8. In fact, for all three OCI's I added the same 1/2 quart of oil at the 3/4 mark. No leaks either.

No, our vehicles do outlast yours. You are welcome to provide evidence to the contrary. Stories that pretend that in the US we do not sell and resell our vehicles don't count. Do you realize, before severe restrictions kicked in, the number of old US vehicles that were sold for many years in Mexico and other southern neighbors? This isn't just particular to Germany.

We agree that lots of good oil is wasted in the US, a lot of it caused by the 3,000-4000 OCI. Something to consider is that often Europe's longer OCI's are combined with larger sumps. Perhaps that 5w30 that was put in that European vehicle will shear close to a 5W-20 halfway through that 20 km OCI?!? Imagine that, no CAFE and yet a 5W-20 in a European vehicle. Perhaps we have shorter OCI's in the US because we start with 5W-20?

My previous points still stand:
1) Using thicker oils in Europe, Australia, etc has not resulted in a pile of failed engines.
2) Using thinner oils in the US and Japan has not resulted in a pile of failed engines.
3) In the US, we hold on to our vehicles longer and, hence, our vehicles have more miles than their counterparts in Europe, Australia, etc.
4) With each passing decade, auto manufacturers are moving towards thinner and thinner oils.

You thick oil guys keep on spreading your FUD about thinner oils and more engine wear, more oil leaks, more oil consumption, etc. and yet you try to ignore and avoid the big, fat elephant in the room---that our vehicles in the US with their thinner oils are outlasting your vehicles with their thicker oils in Europe and Australia, lol!

 

[Clevy]

Oil consumption is brought on because oem's have started,or been using low tension rings,and soft engine break in doesn't seat these low tension rings very well.
Anyways my vehicles have very little measurable oil consumption,in fact none that I can or have noticed up until now anyways. If anything,since I spend easily 12 hours in my truck daily I would assume oil consumption would be a factor with my user hours behind the wheel.
My oil has no faint fuel smell either if that makes a difference.
20 grades seem to be doing just fine in my hemi but again I'm not towing nor flooring the pedal from every stop light either. The truck is in 4wd until I get to dry streets or highway,I would call my usage severe service due to at least 100kms city driving,100 highway and 8 idling hours daily.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: TaterandNoodles
Originally Posted By: AEHaas
I do not buy it. It is said that there is a savings of Billions of CAFE dollars by getting 0.5 more MPG in a car that already gets 30 MPG. I traded in my 5,000 pound 2004 Ford Expedition that got around 14.5 MPG - for a 2011 extended wheelbase 7,000 pound version. It has the same engine but is now a 6 speed. I also noticed more tuning chambers in the all plastic intake system of the engine.

I am now getting 18.5 MPG and the truck is more powerful and faster. Though I rarely tow anything the truck is frequently full of stuff to load it down.

It seems as though they could save Trillions with better tuning and more efficient transmissions. If it was that important to get better fuel efficiency then why are they spending all their efforts on motor oils. This does not make sense to me, sorry.

aehaas

PS - the EPA ratings went from 12-16 to 16-20 MPG.


Transmission and engine tuning are more effective for larger gains. It does however take time and resouces to develop new multi-speed transmissions with proper tuning. I say proper tuning because the 6 speed auto im my wifes Escape sucks and its a 2012. The mileage with the 6 speed and drive by wire may have improved but the transmission performance has suffered resulting in increased dealer visits and complaints over performance.

You cannot back spec a transmission.


Err you most definitely can, as a transmission has bearings and many other parts that can be made cheaper if they last too long.
Some of you are missing the point that CAFE is about the average fuel consumption figures of a corporation and the car manufacturers are doing everything possible to chase the low fuel numbers to avoid what is in effect a fine or if they get lucky a reward. The figures involved mean they don't care if their engines don't last 20 years plus, as long not too many fail during the warranty they will play the thin oil game as hard as they can. Obviously it also looks good in advertising terms to say how little fuel a car or truck uses, but they sure won't tell you the new main block life expectancy has been reduced, how much top up oil will be required or why you have to change the oil so often.

 

[Trav]

Its irrelevant. This is a game, the manufacturers know darn well that they are dealing with a system that moves the fuel economy goal post every time they make a minor improvement.

If they shoot all their bullets at once with large gains they have no back up plan and may have to spend billions in R&D to get that extra .05 MPG.
Give the improvements to the regime a little at a time and howl about how difficult that was to achieve.

The problem IMHO with people is they cant separate the car, the engine or the oil from the political game or the money.
Follow the money and you will find the truth.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: TaterandNoodles
You cannot back spec a transmission.


If you're talking about transmission fluid, then I beg to differ. Anything that used to take Dexron III now takes Dexron VI. Anything that used to take Honda Z1 now takes Honda DW-1. Anything that used to take Chrysler ATF+, ATF+2, or ATF+3 now takes ATF+4. It may be the same with Fords, I'm not sure.