0W-20 vs 5W-20

[fauxchemist]

Originally Posted By: DragRace
Good grief we be dragging this topic thats been beat to death out to 3 pages already,give it a rest already!

I agree. I thought people on here were more intellectual than this. I get rebuked all the time on this forum for asking what im told is a stupid question but yet we will argue about 0 and 5 weight of the same viscosity forever. Geez I thought 5w30 vs. 5w-20 was bad enough.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: Trav


As far as snarky remarks and you just being a guy who reads? Feel like revisiting your torque wrench opinions you read about?

We aren't talking about torque wrenches now, are we? I spent a number of years writing technical manuals that involve fastened joints--but what does that have to do with anything with respect to motor oil viscosity.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Hey listen you brought up Japan in the subject.
Originally Posted By: Jod
There's no CAFE in Japan, so the basis of your question isn't correct...and neither is your understanding of the CAFE methods and requirements.

There maybe no CAFE but there sure is another mechanism for forcing thin oil and that's the point.
No one is moving the goal post you brought it up for cripes sake so don't get your knickers in a twist.


Another thing is that Japan has a system whereby it's not economical to keep a car on the road for longer than 40,000km or so...the average Japanese cares not for longevity.

 

[FoxS]

It's a pity to see mean comments to other posters on Xmas day.

Debate and facts are good but let's show goodwill to all at least today.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: Jod
Umm...I guess it's a good post if he's just reinforcing what you already believe....but it's not actually correct.

Did you read they can bank credits for future use?
Even though today 2012 they don't get credit for 0w they may be able to back claim credits. Its hard to follow but Toyota even got involved with Ford over some scheme for credits.


What does "banking credits" have to do with the topic of this thread? The EPA currently does not differentiate among oils thinner then 5W30. There is no credit for a "0W" oil, period.

Originally Posted By: Trav
Why don't you try to find out. Read this article on taxation and fuel economy in Japan and give us you "expert opinion".
Could it be they spec 0w in Japan to meet fuel economy standards and avoid extra taxation.

http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/jp/fe.php



Why would I read it? I don't live in Japan so I really don't care. And please, stop moving the goalposts. This isn't about Japan, and 30W oils, the question was about the difference bewtween 0W and 5W oils in Toyota's American owner's manual. I have no idea why they spec what they do in Japan, nor do I care.

As far as my "expert opinion", save your snark for Caterham...I'm just a guy who can read, and was interested enough to go to the EPA's site to see if there was any factual basis to your claim. There isn't.


What about this then.
Quote:
Manufacturers are also allowed to earn CAFE "credits" in any year they exceed CAFE requirements, which they may use to offset deficiencies in other years. CAFE credits can be applied to the three years before or after the year in which they are earned. The reason for this flexibility is so manufacturers are penalized only for persistent failure to meet the requirements, not for transient non-compliance due to market conditions.


You only read what you want to read then post it as fact. But you don't seem to get the whole picture. Would you like me to interpret this for you?

While it may not say specifically they can get credit for 0w oil they can get credit and bank them for three years for the tiny percent of increased fuel economy.
With a lot of new regs coming in 2016 so starting in 2013 three years out is more than just coincidence.

 

[edhackett]

Originally Posted By: Clevy

What's FUD mean?
Pm if it won't make it by the censors


Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. It's a powerful marketing tool and a highly effective way of herding the sheep.

Ed

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: edhackett
Originally Posted By: Clevy

What's FUD mean?
Pm if it won't make it by the censors


Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. It's a powerful marketing tool and a highly effective way of herding the sheep.

Ed


Thank you

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Trav
Hey listen you brought up Japan in the subject.
Originally Posted By: Jod
There's no CAFE in Japan, so the basis of your question isn't correct...and neither is your understanding of the CAFE methods and requirements.

There maybe no CAFE but there sure is another mechanism for forcing thin oil and that's the point.
No one is moving the goal post you brought it up for cripes sake so don't get your knickers in a twist.


Another thing is that Japan has a system whereby it's not economical to keep a car on the road for longer than 40,000km or so...the average Japanese cares not for longevity.


Really?
Why is that? Is it some form of taxation on older cars,safety checks or something? 40k is barely breaking in a vehicle but there its useable life is finished?
Now that is an interesting tidbit of info

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: Jod
Umm...I guess it's a good post if he's just reinforcing what you already believe....but it's not actually correct.

Did you read they can bank credits for future use?
Even though today 2012 they don't get credit for 0w they may be able to back claim credits. Its hard to follow but Toyota even got involved with Ford over some scheme for credits.


What does "banking credits" have to do with the topic of this thread? The EPA currently does not differentiate among oils thinner then 5W30. There is no credit for a "0W" oil, period.

Originally Posted By: Trav
Why don't you try to find out. Read this article on taxation and fuel economy in Japan and give us you "expert opinion".
Could it be they spec 0w in Japan to meet fuel economy standards and avoid extra taxation.

http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/jp/fe.php



Why would I read it? I don't live in Japan so I really don't care. And please, stop moving the goalposts. This isn't about Japan, and 30W oils, the question was about the difference bewtween 0W and 5W oils in Toyota's American owner's manual. I have no idea why they spec what they do in Japan, nor do I care.

As far as my "expert opinion", save your snark for Caterham...I'm just a guy who can read, and was interested enough to go to the EPA's site to see if there was any factual basis to your claim. There isn't.


What about this then.
Quote:
Manufacturers are also allowed to earn CAFE "credits" in any year they exceed CAFE requirements, which they may use to offset deficiencies in other years. CAFE credits can be applied to the three years before or after the year in which they are earned. The reason for this flexibility is so manufacturers are penalized only for persistent failure to meet the requirements, not for transient non-compliance due to market conditions.


You only read what you want to read then post it as fact. But you don't seem to get the whole picture. Would you like me to interpret this for you?

While it may not say specifically they can get credit for 0w oil they can get credit and bank them for three years for the tiny percent of increased fuel economy.
With a lot of new regs coming in 2016 so starting in 2013 three years out is more than just coincidence.


Another very interesting tidbit of info.
I'm more confused than ever now on the thick/thin conspiracy. Trav always puts out a very convincing argument,and seems to always find something to back it up,interesting indeed.
Not gonna sell off the thick stash just yet

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: gathermewool
Hydraulically operated systems can't be THAT sensitive to viscosity. It just doesn't make sense that oil wouldn't flow through and pressurize the applicable mechanism as soon as the solenoid energizes.


This statement illustrates how wrong one can be. You aren't grasping the concept of how thick an oil can get in subzero temperatures, and how slowly an oil with the consistency of sour cream will flow through an orifice of .020" diameter.

 

[edhackett]

The CAFE credit situation now goes deeper than what Trav posted:

Quote:
CAFE credit trading provisions

The 2007 Energy Independence and Security Act also instructed NHTSA to establish a credit trading and transferring scheme to allow manufacturers to transfer credits between categories, as well as sell them to other manufacturers or non-manufacturers. In addition, the period over which credits could be carried forward was extended from three years to five. Traded or transferred credits may not be used to meet the minimum standard in the domestic passenger car fleet, however they may be used to meet the "attribute standard".[33] This latter allowance has drawn criticism from the UAW which fears it will lead manufacturers to increase the importation of small cars to offset shortfalls in the domestic market.

These new flexibilities were implemented by regulation on March 23, 2009 in the Final Rule for 2011 Model Year Passenger Cars and Light Trucks.

Calculations using official CAFE data, and the newly proposed credit trading flexibility contained in the September 28, 2009 Notice of Proposed Rulemaking[34] show that ninety-eight percent of the benefit derived from just the cross fleet credit trading provision flows to Toyota. According to these calculations 75% of the benefit from the two new CAFE credit trading provisions, cross fleet trading and 5-year carry-forward, falls to foreign manufacturers. Toyota can use the provision to avoid or reduce compliance on average by 0.69 mpg per year through 2020,

Hyundai (1.01 mpg),
Nissan (0.65),
Honda (0.83 mpg),
Mitsubishi (0.13 mpg),
Subaru (0.08),
Chrysler (0.14 mpg),
GM (0.09 mpg), and
Ford (0.18 mpg) also benefit.

The estimated value of the CAFE exemption gained by Toyota is $2.5 billion; Honda’s benefit is worth $0.8 billion, and Nissan’s benefit is valued at $0.9 billion in reduced CAFE compliance costs. Foreign companies gained $5.5 billion in benefits compared with the $1.8 billion that went to the Detroit Three.


Toyota as a strong incentive to gain that last 0.1 of a mpg credit, as they can use it themselves or sell them to other companies. They are an asset to the company literally worth billions.

Here's a list of the credit status of the various manufacturers:

Cafe Credits

Ed

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: edhackett
The CAFE credit situation now goes deeper than what Trav posted:

Quote:
CAFE credit trading provisions

The 2007 Energy Independence and Security Act also instructed NHTSA to establish a credit trading and transferring scheme to allow manufacturers to transfer credits between categories, as well as sell them to other manufacturers or non-manufacturers. In addition, the period over which credits could be carried forward was extended from three years to five. Traded or transferred credits may not be used to meet the minimum standard in the domestic passenger car fleet, however they may be used to meet the "attribute standard".[33] This latter allowance has drawn criticism from the UAW which fears it will lead manufacturers to increase the importation of small cars to offset shortfalls in the domestic market.

These new flexibilities were implemented by regulation on March 23, 2009 in the Final Rule for 2011 Model Year Passenger Cars and Light Trucks.

Calculations using official CAFE data, and the newly proposed credit trading flexibility contained in the September 28, 2009 Notice of Proposed Rulemaking[34] show that ninety-eight percent of the benefit derived from just the cross fleet credit trading provision flows to Toyota. According to these calculations 75% of the benefit from the two new CAFE credit trading provisions, cross fleet trading and 5-year carry-forward, falls to foreign manufacturers. Toyota can use the provision to avoid or reduce compliance on average by 0.69 mpg per year through 2020,

Hyundai (1.01 mpg),
Nissan (0.65),
Honda (0.83 mpg),
Mitsubishi (0.13 mpg),
Subaru (0.08),
Chrysler (0.14 mpg),
GM (0.09 mpg), and
Ford (0.18 mpg) also benefit.

The estimated value of the CAFE exemption gained by Toyota is $2.5 billion; Honda’s benefit is worth $0.8 billion, and Nissan’s benefit is valued at $0.9 billion in reduced CAFE compliance costs. Foreign companies gained $5.5 billion in benefits compared with the $1.8 billion that went to the Detroit Three.


Toyota as a strong incentive to gain that last 0.1 of a mpg credit, as they can use it themselves or sell them to other companies. They are an asset to the company literally worth billions.

Here's a list of the credit status of the various manufacturers:

Cafe Credits

Ed


Wow. CAFE credits worth billions.
I've learned alot here today.
Thanks to everyone who posted.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: Trav

You only read what you want to read then post it as fact. But you don't seem to get the whole picture. Would you like me to interpret this for you?

While it may not say specifically they can get credit for 0w oil they can get credit and bank them for three years for the tiny percent of increased fuel economy.
With a lot of new regs coming in 2016 so starting in 2013 three years out is more than just coincidence.


Again, what are you talking about? There are no additional credits earned for a 0W oil vs. a 5W oil. All oils thinner than 30W are treated as one...so there are no additional credits to bank?

The subject of the thread isn't 20W vs. 30W oils, it's 0W20 vs 5W20-which you claim is a result of "CAFE standards". That seems unlikely, since there are no additional CAFE credits to be claimed?

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: edhackett
The CAFE credit situation now goes deeper than what Trav posted:

Quote:
CAFE credit trading provisions

The 2007 Energy Independence and Security Act also instructed NHTSA to establish a credit trading and transferring scheme to allow manufacturers to transfer credits between categories, as well as sell them to other manufacturers or non-manufacturers. In addition, the period over which credits could be carried forward was extended from three years to five. Traded or transferred credits may not be used to meet the minimum standard in the domestic passenger car fleet, however they may be used to meet the "attribute standard".[33] This latter allowance has drawn criticism from the UAW which fears it will lead manufacturers to increase the importation of small cars to offset shortfalls in the domestic market.

These new flexibilities were implemented by regulation on March 23, 2009 in the Final Rule for 2011 Model Year Passenger Cars and Light Trucks.

Calculations using official CAFE data, and the newly proposed credit trading flexibility contained in the September 28, 2009 Notice of Proposed Rulemaking[34] show that ninety-eight percent of the benefit derived from just the cross fleet credit trading provision flows to Toyota. According to these calculations 75% of the benefit from the two new CAFE credit trading provisions, cross fleet trading and 5-year carry-forward, falls to foreign manufacturers. Toyota can use the provision to avoid or reduce compliance on average by 0.69 mpg per year through 2020,

Hyundai (1.01 mpg),
Nissan (0.65),
Honda (0.83 mpg),
Mitsubishi (0.13 mpg),
Subaru (0.08),
Chrysler (0.14 mpg),
GM (0.09 mpg), and
Ford (0.18 mpg) also benefit.

The estimated value of the CAFE exemption gained by Toyota is $2.5 billion; Honda’s benefit is worth $0.8 billion, and Nissan’s benefit is valued at $0.9 billion in reduced CAFE compliance costs. Foreign companies gained $5.5 billion in benefits compared with the $1.8 billion that went to the Detroit Three.


Toyota as a strong incentive to gain that last 0.1 of a mpg credit, as they can use it themselves or sell them to other companies. They are an asset to the company literally worth billions.

Here's a list of the credit status of the various manufacturers:

Cafe Credits

Ed


Wow. CAFE credits worth billions.
I've learned alot here today.
Thanks to everyone who posted.


The whole CAFE game is nuts, I do support the use of more fuel efficient vehicles, but the best way to do that is what the Germans do and tax petrol more than diesel. That has made a big difference in getting the big gas guzzlers off the road, without encouraging manufacturers to spec thin oils, that in some non hybrid cases will reduce the engine life expectancy. Oddly enough most engines used in non hybrid cars sold in the EU say 0 or 5w30 with longer OCI limits than the US dealers recommend for using 0/20, which is one big hint as to the truth about the thin oil game.
There is very little difference between 0 and 5W in relative viscosity terms and I can't think that any engine designer would plan on using an oil pressure switch that was effected by the viscosity. Most engines will run happily on any W rating between 0 and 20, assuming you can get the engine to start when cold.

 

[Trav]

Forget the oil viscosity its irrelevant.
If 0w20 gets 1% better fuel economy than 5w20 they improve their CAFE 1%.
They can then bank that improvement or overage for three years.
They can either use them if need be or sell that credit.

It not that they get additional credit for 0w vs 5w its the percent of additional fuel savings.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Wow. CAFE credits worth billions.
I've learned alot here today.
Thanks to everyone who posted.

That why companies test previous model year vehicles with thinner oil and submit test results to get approved and CAFE credits. Otherwise, no company wants to spend money to test and back-spec previous year vehicles.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Wow. CAFE credits worth billions.
I've learned alot here today.
Thanks to everyone who posted.

That why companies test previous model year vehicles with thinner oil and submit test results to get approved and CAFE credits. Otherwise, no company wants to spend money to test and back-spec previous year vehicles.


Posts and articles like those really lend to TRav's position.
Many of our members dont like these thick/thin debates,I for one find them to be some of the best conversations we have here.Certainly the more informative ones.

 

[JAG]

I find Trav's posts to be logical and that he has a balanced view of things.

 

[Capa]

Lots of red herrings in this thread and the thick oil group has yet to show evidence that thin oils don't protect sufficiently. Please, most here don't care about Europe. Again, provide the evidence that US or Japanese engines are catastrophically falling apart due to thin oils. As we say in the States: Put up or shut up!
The thick oil group seem to be blind to the fact that the worldwide industry is moving to thinner oils and has been for several decades. You are living in the past while our modern engines last longer than before with thinner oils.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: Capa
Lots of red herrings in this thread and the thick oil group has yet to show evidence that thin oils don't protect sufficiently. Please, most here don't care about Europe. Again, provide the evidence that US or Japanese engines are catastrophically falling apart due to thin oils. As we say in the States: Put up or shut up!
The thick oil group seem to be blind to the fact that the worldwide industry is moving to thinner oils and has been for several decades. You are living in the past while our modern engines last longer than before with thinner oils.


I get that however there are interesting twists to the whole CAFE thing.
my hemi seeems to be doing fine at 250k with 5w20.I dont beat on it though and its my winter beater but it's interesting about different markets specifying different grades.