0W-20 vs 5W-20
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Originally Posted By: rraiderr
You all keep saying this has been beaten to death. Yes the 20W debate has been but not my question.
Clearly there is still a huge debate on this topic and none of the previous posts answer my question.
Why is Toyota so dead set on 0W-20 only, why can't I run 5W-20 without them freaking out.
There has to be some technical reason or they would not make such a big issues.
So what is the technical reason? Is it the VVT?
I could care less what oil is better, all I want to know I why technically, not emotionally they keep telling me I can't run the stock pile of 5W-20XL in my garage in my 2012 FJ.
Technically there is no reason whatsoever. It has to do with their CAFE credits nothing more or less.
Basically these swine's brow beat, threaten loss of warranty to insure the consumer is using same viscosity they used to get their CAFE rating on that vehicle.
Its all about them not you or your engine that's why i call them swine's.
That's also the reason there is no option for any other grade in many cases. Its only going to get worse.
Common sense dictates that if it can be run in another part of the world with similar climate on a different viscosity oil then there is no technical reason.
You all keep saying this has been beaten to death. Yes the 20W debate has been but not my question.
Clearly there is still a huge debate on this topic and none of the previous posts answer my question.
Why is Toyota so dead set on 0W-20 only, why can't I run 5W-20 without them freaking out.
There has to be some technical reason or they would not make such a big issues.
So what is the technical reason? Is it the VVT?
I could care less what oil is better, all I want to know I why technically, not emotionally they keep telling me I can't run the stock pile of 5W-20XL in my garage in my 2012 FJ.
Technically there is no reason whatsoever. It has to do with their CAFE credits nothing more or less.
Basically these swine's brow beat, threaten loss of warranty to insure the consumer is using same viscosity they used to get their CAFE rating on that vehicle.
Its all about them not you or your engine that's why i call them swine's.
That's also the reason there is no option for any other grade in many cases. Its only going to get worse.
Common sense dictates that if it can be run in another part of the world with similar climate on a different viscosity oil then there is no technical reason.
Originally Posted By: bar1
Originally Posted By: rraiderr
So what is the technical reason? Is it the VVT?
If you look at the lubematch I posted (Shell, Castrol and Mobil, Europe and most of the world, except US/Canada), for the exact same engine Toyota recommends 5w30.
VVT is clearly not the reason for 0W-20 recommendation in the US.
I think they spec 0/20 to stop owners using cheap conventional 5w20 oils, as 0/20 has to be made of higher quality base stock. I'm surprised there are now syn blend 0/20's as all the 0/30 and 40's are at least HC synthetics.
If you own a vehicle using a 20 grade I would recommend keeping a good check on the oil consumption and if it goes up after a few years, do investigate whether a move to a 30 grade will help reduce oil consumption, as some engine types don't appreciate their use when they get older.
Originally Posted By: rraiderr
So what is the technical reason? Is it the VVT?
If you look at the lubematch I posted (Shell, Castrol and Mobil, Europe and most of the world, except US/Canada), for the exact same engine Toyota recommends 5w30.
VVT is clearly not the reason for 0W-20 recommendation in the US.
I think they spec 0/20 to stop owners using cheap conventional 5w20 oils, as 0/20 has to be made of higher quality base stock. I'm surprised there are now syn blend 0/20's as all the 0/30 and 40's are at least HC synthetics.
If you own a vehicle using a 20 grade I would recommend keeping a good check on the oil consumption and if it goes up after a few years, do investigate whether a move to a 30 grade will help reduce oil consumption, as some engine types don't appreciate their use when they get older.
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
Hydraulically operated systems can't be THAT sensitive to viscosity. It just doesn't make sense that oil wouldn't flow through and pressurize the applicable mechanism as soon as the solenoid energizes.
In my 2010 Hyundai turbo it restricts the turbo boost and the valve timing until the oil temp is 140F. The 2013s they bumped the temp up to 160F.
As I understand it this is for the oil controlled cam timing adjusters. But the recommended range of oil grades is 5w20 to 5w40
The temp limit is to protect the engine, not because the oil is too viscous to operate the VVT.
It's a wonder engines lasted without this. Why is the oil temp sensor just upstream of the VVT solenoid?
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
Hydraulically operated systems can't be THAT sensitive to viscosity. It just doesn't make sense that oil wouldn't flow through and pressurize the applicable mechanism as soon as the solenoid energizes.
In my 2010 Hyundai turbo it restricts the turbo boost and the valve timing until the oil temp is 140F. The 2013s they bumped the temp up to 160F.
As I understand it this is for the oil controlled cam timing adjusters. But the recommended range of oil grades is 5w20 to 5w40
The temp limit is to protect the engine, not because the oil is too viscous to operate the VVT.
It's a wonder engines lasted without this. Why is the oil temp sensor just upstream of the VVT solenoid?
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Trav
Yet countries like Norway with much colder temps than much of the continental US seem to run 30w without any such trouble.
Hey, I started my car outside after many hours in -26 C today with conventional 5w30. It and I survived.
We started our Corolla with Quaker State Conventional 5w20 in -31C and no problems here either!
Originally Posted By: Trav
Yet countries like Norway with much colder temps than much of the continental US seem to run 30w without any such trouble.
Hey, I started my car outside after many hours in -26 C today with conventional 5w30. It and I survived.
We started our Corolla with Quaker State Conventional 5w20 in -31C and no problems here either!
This is from Hyundai's online tech site and explains why the oil temp is important to the cam oil solenoids. And again Hyundai on this particular model, Genesis Coupe 2L turbo, recommends a wide range of oil viscosities.
API classification : SL, SM or above
ILSAC classification : GF3, GF4 or above
SAE viscosity grade : 5W-20, 5w30, 5W-40
The fluid of the CVVT is the engine oil and its density changes according to the engine oil temperature. At this time the Oil Temperature Sensor (OTS) helps compensation against the temperature differences. The Oil Temperature Sensor measures the engine oil temperature before the engine oil comes into the Oil-flow Control Valve (OCV).
According to the measured temperature, the Engine Control Module (ECM) compensates the oil-flow control valve operation time.
API classification : SL, SM or above
ILSAC classification : GF3, GF4 or above
SAE viscosity grade : 5W-20, 5w30, 5W-40
The fluid of the CVVT is the engine oil and its density changes according to the engine oil temperature. At this time the Oil Temperature Sensor (OTS) helps compensation against the temperature differences. The Oil Temperature Sensor measures the engine oil temperature before the engine oil comes into the Oil-flow Control Valve (OCV).
According to the measured temperature, the Engine Control Module (ECM) compensates the oil-flow control valve operation time.
Originally Posted By: Trav
Technically there is no reason whatsoever. It has to do with their CAFE credits nothing more or less.
Basically these swine's brow beat, threaten loss of warranty to insure the consumer is using same viscosity they used to get their CAFE rating on that vehicle.
Its all about them not you or your engine that's why i call them swine's.
That's also the reason there is no option for any other grade in many cases. Its only going to get worse.
Common sense dictates that if it can be run in another part of the world with similar climate on a different viscosity oil then there is no technical reason.
Good post Trav I must agree on all points!
Technically there is no reason whatsoever. It has to do with their CAFE credits nothing more or less.
Basically these swine's brow beat, threaten loss of warranty to insure the consumer is using same viscosity they used to get their CAFE rating on that vehicle.
Its all about them not you or your engine that's why i call them swine's.
That's also the reason there is no option for any other grade in many cases. Its only going to get worse.
Common sense dictates that if it can be run in another part of the world with similar climate on a different viscosity oil then there is no technical reason.
Good post Trav I must agree on all points!
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Originally Posted By: Trav
Technically there is no reason whatsoever. It has to do with their CAFE credits nothing more or less.
Basically these swine's brow beat, threaten loss of warranty to insure the consumer is using same viscosity they used to get their CAFE rating on that vehicle.
Its all about them not you or your engine that's why i call them swine's.
That's also the reason there is no option for any other grade in many cases. Its only going to get worse.
Common sense dictates that if it can be run in another part of the world with similar climate on a different viscosity oil then there is no technical reason.
Good post Trav I must agree on all points!
Umm...I guess it's a good post if he's just reinforcing what you already believe....but it's not actually correct. There are no cafe credits applied for 0W20 over a 5W20. The EPA categorizes both as "low friction lubricant" and at this point (and until at least 2016) doesn't differentiate between the two. So, claiming Toyota is mandating a 0W20 oil for "CAFE credits" is patently false. But don't let facts ever get in the way.
Originally Posted By: Trav
Technically there is no reason whatsoever. It has to do with their CAFE credits nothing more or less.
Basically these swine's brow beat, threaten loss of warranty to insure the consumer is using same viscosity they used to get their CAFE rating on that vehicle.
Its all about them not you or your engine that's why i call them swine's.
That's also the reason there is no option for any other grade in many cases. Its only going to get worse.
Common sense dictates that if it can be run in another part of the world with similar climate on a different viscosity oil then there is no technical reason.
Good post Trav I must agree on all points!
Umm...I guess it's a good post if he's just reinforcing what you already believe....but it's not actually correct. There are no cafe credits applied for 0W20 over a 5W20. The EPA categorizes both as "low friction lubricant" and at this point (and until at least 2016) doesn't differentiate between the two. So, claiming Toyota is mandating a 0W20 oil for "CAFE credits" is patently false. But don't let facts ever get in the way.
Yes but if Toyota uses their moly loaded, high VI low HTHS 0w20 they can squeak out a tiny fractional fleet mpg increase which due to CAFE can save them big bucks.
But I've seen Trav post this question many times and never, ever seen a good answer to it. If Toyota specs the exact same engine for 5w30 elsewhere, if not CAFE why then? Why do they just happen to be married to 0w20 where there is CAFE and nowhere else???
But I've seen Trav post this question many times and never, ever seen a good answer to it. If Toyota specs the exact same engine for 5w30 elsewhere, if not CAFE why then? Why do they just happen to be married to 0w20 where there is CAFE and nowhere else???
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Yes but if Toyota uses their moly loaded, high VI low HTHS 0w20 they can squeak out a tiny fractional fleet mpg increase which due to CAFE can save them big bucks.
But I've seen Trav post this question many times and never, ever seen a good answer to it. If Toyota specs the exact same engine for 5w30 elsewhere, if not CAFE why then? Why do they just happen to be married to 0w20 where there is CAFE and nowhere else???
There's no CAFE in Japan, so the basis of your question isn't correct...and neither is your understanding of the CAFE methods and requirements. In order to use a lubricant for fleet testing, it just needs to be specified as the factory lubricant and be available for sale. It doesn't need to be "required". I have no idea why Toyota "requires" 0W20 vs. 5W20, but CAFE credits and standards has nothing to do with it. Cafe credits (as they're currently written) treat all oils thinner than 30W as the same.
The question about 30W oils being recommended in other markets has no relevance to the OP's question (he's asking about 2 different 20W oils), and there are a million threads on it already (and your question above has been addressed a million times). I don't see a reason to drag it into this thread.
Yes but if Toyota uses their moly loaded, high VI low HTHS 0w20 they can squeak out a tiny fractional fleet mpg increase which due to CAFE can save them big bucks.
But I've seen Trav post this question many times and never, ever seen a good answer to it. If Toyota specs the exact same engine for 5w30 elsewhere, if not CAFE why then? Why do they just happen to be married to 0w20 where there is CAFE and nowhere else???
There's no CAFE in Japan, so the basis of your question isn't correct...and neither is your understanding of the CAFE methods and requirements. In order to use a lubricant for fleet testing, it just needs to be specified as the factory lubricant and be available for sale. It doesn't need to be "required". I have no idea why Toyota "requires" 0W20 vs. 5W20, but CAFE credits and standards has nothing to do with it. Cafe credits (as they're currently written) treat all oils thinner than 30W as the same.
The question about 30W oils being recommended in other markets has no relevance to the OP's question (he's asking about 2 different 20W oils), and there are a million threads on it already (and your question above has been addressed a million times). I don't see a reason to drag it into this thread.
If it's required doesn't Toyota have to provide it for free according to the Magnuson-Moss act? Understanding the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975
My Lexus has the 2GR-FE engine in it. Why is 2010 spec'd for 5W20 and the 2011s spec'd for 0W20? I asked the dealer and their justification is the extra MPG gained using 0W. All else being equal, the extra MPG doesn't make up for the extra costs for oil changes (5W conventional vs 0W synthetic) over the lifetime of the vehicle.
With all due respect, some of you saying that the 0W is somehow a better quality oil is more speculation to justify its mandated use by manufacturers.
With all due respect, some of you saying that the 0W is somehow a better quality oil is more speculation to justify its mandated use by manufacturers.
So are we saying that Toyota specifies 0w-20 in Japan,as well as North America? And 5w30 in Europe?
If that is the case then it can't be CAFE exclusively.
I think perhaps the specify what is easily available in the market the engine is operated in.
I'm sure ford back spec'd for CAFE with the mod motors. It was just strange that in 99 5w30 was the norm,then in 2000 it was 5w-20 for the same engines but did Toyota,or Honda implement the same standard,and if so what year did it happen.
Even if its CAFE driven the 20 grades are proving to be adequate in most engines,providing long engine life for the consumer,but we love to split hairs here at bitog,and I think the conversations are very enlightening.
I agree with trav that at first it was CAFE driven,but today the engines are proving they won't dissolve.
More years of consumer trials will prove I guess,one way or another if 20 grades will indeed tough enough for today's harder working engines.
If that is the case then it can't be CAFE exclusively.
I think perhaps the specify what is easily available in the market the engine is operated in.
I'm sure ford back spec'd for CAFE with the mod motors. It was just strange that in 99 5w30 was the norm,then in 2000 it was 5w-20 for the same engines but did Toyota,or Honda implement the same standard,and if so what year did it happen.
Even if its CAFE driven the 20 grades are proving to be adequate in most engines,providing long engine life for the consumer,but we love to split hairs here at bitog,and I think the conversations are very enlightening.
I agree with trav that at first it was CAFE driven,but today the engines are proving they won't dissolve.
More years of consumer trials will prove I guess,one way or another if 20 grades will indeed tough enough for today's harder working engines.
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
If it's required doesn't Toyota have to provide it for free according to the Magnuson-Moss act? Understanding the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975
No, because they aren't requiring a specific oil to be used, only one that meets certain specifications. You are free to use any brand oil you like, as long as it meets those specs.
If it's required doesn't Toyota have to provide it for free according to the Magnuson-Moss act? Understanding the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975
No, because they aren't requiring a specific oil to be used, only one that meets certain specifications. You are free to use any brand oil you like, as long as it meets those specs.
Originally Posted By: Jod
Umm...I guess it's a good post if he's just reinforcing what you already believe....but it's not actually correct.
Did you read they can bank credits for future use?
Even though today 2012 they don't get credit for 0w they may be able to back claim credits. Its hard to follow but Toyota even got involved with Ford over some scheme for credits.
Why don't you try to find out. Read this article on taxation and fuel economy in Japan and give us you "expert opinion".
Could it be they spec 0w in Japan to meet fuel economy standards and avoid extra taxation.
http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/jp/fe.php
Umm...I guess it's a good post if he's just reinforcing what you already believe....but it's not actually correct.
Did you read they can bank credits for future use?
Even though today 2012 they don't get credit for 0w they may be able to back claim credits. Its hard to follow but Toyota even got involved with Ford over some scheme for credits.
Why don't you try to find out. Read this article on taxation and fuel economy in Japan and give us you "expert opinion".
Could it be they spec 0w in Japan to meet fuel economy standards and avoid extra taxation.
http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/jp/fe.php
Interesting article on much which Trav and I have discussed previously.
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/518/motor-oils
Quote:
Dagenham Motors in England, one of the largest Ford dealers in Europe, was consulted. SAE 5w30 is required for warranty purposes in England, and SAE 5W-20 is not even available. If SAE 5W-20 were better for both fuel economy and wear, why would Ford not recommend it for its same engines in Europe?
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/518/motor-oils
Quote:
Dagenham Motors in England, one of the largest Ford dealers in Europe, was consulted. SAE 5w30 is required for warranty purposes in England, and SAE 5W-20 is not even available. If SAE 5W-20 were better for both fuel economy and wear, why would Ford not recommend it for its same engines in Europe?
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: Jod
Umm...I guess it's a good post if he's just reinforcing what you already believe....but it's not actually correct.
Did you read they can bank credits for future use?
Even though today 2012 they don't get credit for 0w they may be able to back claim credits. Its hard to follow but Toyota even got involved with Ford over some scheme for credits.
What does "banking credits" have to do with the topic of this thread? The EPA currently does not differentiate among oils thinner then 5W30. There is no credit for a "0W" oil, period.
Originally Posted By: Trav
Why don't you try to find out. Read this article on taxation and fuel economy in Japan and give us you "expert opinion".
Could it be they spec 0w in Japan to meet fuel economy standards and avoid extra taxation.
http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/jp/fe.php
Why would I read it? I don't live in Japan so I really don't care. And please, stop moving the goalposts. This isn't about Japan, and 30W oils, the question was about the difference bewtween 0W and 5W oils in Toyota's American owner's manual. I have no idea why they spec what they do in Japan, nor do I care.
As far as my "expert opinion", save your snark for Caterham...I'm just a guy who can read, and was interested enough to go to the EPA's site to see if there was any factual basis to your claim. There isn't.
Originally Posted By: Jod
Umm...I guess it's a good post if he's just reinforcing what you already believe....but it's not actually correct.
Did you read they can bank credits for future use?
Even though today 2012 they don't get credit for 0w they may be able to back claim credits. Its hard to follow but Toyota even got involved with Ford over some scheme for credits.
What does "banking credits" have to do with the topic of this thread? The EPA currently does not differentiate among oils thinner then 5W30. There is no credit for a "0W" oil, period.
Originally Posted By: Trav
Why don't you try to find out. Read this article on taxation and fuel economy in Japan and give us you "expert opinion".
Could it be they spec 0w in Japan to meet fuel economy standards and avoid extra taxation.
http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/jp/fe.php
Why would I read it? I don't live in Japan so I really don't care. And please, stop moving the goalposts. This isn't about Japan, and 30W oils, the question was about the difference bewtween 0W and 5W oils in Toyota's American owner's manual. I have no idea why they spec what they do in Japan, nor do I care.
As far as my "expert opinion", save your snark for Caterham...I'm just a guy who can read, and was interested enough to go to the EPA's site to see if there was any factual basis to your claim. There isn't.
Hey listen you brought up Japan in the subject.
Originally Posted By: Jod
There's no CAFE in Japan, so the basis of your question isn't correct...and neither is your understanding of the CAFE methods and requirements.
There maybe no CAFE but there sure is another mechanism for forcing thin oil and that's the point.
No one is moving the goal post you brought it up for cripes sake so don't get your knickers in a twist.
As far as snarky remarks and you just being a guy who reads? Feel like revisiting your torque wrench opinions you read about?
Originally Posted By: Jod
There's no CAFE in Japan, so the basis of your question isn't correct...and neither is your understanding of the CAFE methods and requirements.
There maybe no CAFE but there sure is another mechanism for forcing thin oil and that's the point.
No one is moving the goal post you brought it up for cripes sake so don't get your knickers in a twist.
As far as snarky remarks and you just being a guy who reads? Feel like revisiting your torque wrench opinions you read about?
Good grief we be dragging this topic thats been beat to death out to 3 pages already,give it a rest already!
From another user I rarely agree with on a different thread.
Originally Posted By: skyship
I even found a new Honda engine that is using part synthetic 5/20 in the US, but exactly the same engine is used in Hondas in Germany and the dealers are using 0/30 for the initial warranty and 0/40 after that. The oil finders list both oil grades as good, so it seems some dealers have learnt not to repeat oil service errors of the past.
Hmmm....
Originally Posted By: skyship
I even found a new Honda engine that is using part synthetic 5/20 in the US, but exactly the same engine is used in Hondas in Germany and the dealers are using 0/30 for the initial warranty and 0/40 after that. The oil finders list both oil grades as good, so it seems some dealers have learnt not to repeat oil service errors of the past.
Hmmm....
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