0W-20 required for emissions certification

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: RiceCake
Trav trying to start a 20-30 weight flamewar...

20 weights are fine. Drop it already.


Trav always makes very good points in those discussions.I for one follow his comments for that and the logic he uses to come to his conclusions.He makes valid points and gives us lesser informed members alot to think about.
start the flamethrowers as far as I'm concerned,they tend to be the most informative discussions we have here.
So Ricecake I will simply suggest either not reading those particular threads,with those particular types of comments,or log off.No one makes you read nor respond to them and if it bothers you then just dont read them,or put him on ignore.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: tudorart
"^^2nd. How about extended high speed driving?"
Where can you legally do that in the US? That's not Honda's intended use!
If you do, Honda does not recommend/cover it and it's not even included in the severe schedule. Just like racing, towing and driving with a roof top carrier at highway speeds for extended periods of time.


Many US owners manuals give one and only one oil choice, under any and all driving conditions. IMO that is wrong and one of my pet peeves. I take a lot of heart for that opinion, but I'm also in good company. These same engines in other parts of the world can use different viscosity oils to meet different driving profiles and vehicle use patterns. No longer so for many of the newer vehicles sold in the US. These engines [same year] are exactly the same internally in all parts of the world. IMO if a vehicle is driven hard in hot climates or towing for example, bumping up from 20 to 30 grade oil would be beneficial.

 

[FoxS]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Summer heat in Texas is not even close to the Death Valleys where car companies tested their car/trucks. If F150 can ran reliably with 120+ in Death Valleys all day with 5W20, it can easily passes the 100+ in Texas.

+1 I wish I could find the link to the testing Ford did with towing to prove the 5W20 oil was safe and held up extremely well in their applications calling for it.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: FoxS

+1 I wish I could find the link to the testing Ford did with towing to prove the 5W20 oil was safe and held up extremely well in their applications calling for it.


I read it, in fact more than once. That doesn't mean I have to treat it as Gospel.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: tudorart
"^^2nd. How about extended high speed driving?"
Where can you legally do that in the US? That's not Honda's intended use!
If you do, Honda does not recommend/cover it and it's not even included in the severe schedule. Just like racing, towing and driving with a roof top carrier at highway speeds for extended periods of time.


Many US owners manuals give one and only one oil choice, under any and all driving conditions. IMO that is wrong and one of my pet peeves. I take a lot of heart for that opinion, but I'm also in good company. These same engines in
other parts of the world can use different viscosity oils to meet different driving profiles and vehicle use patterns. No longer so for many of the newer vehicles sold in the US. These engines [same year] are exactly the same internally in all parts of the world. IMO if a vehicle is driven hard in hot climates or towing for example, bumping up from 20 to 30 grade oil would be beneficial.

I agree with you 100%. Why here do we get potential warrantee exclusion if that very same engine somewhere else can use a different grade oil. If it's acceptable in Europe for example why is it not an option for use here.
In my personal application in my hemi the 20 grades that have been used up until now don't seemed to have harmed anything,and to be honest the way I drive it I will continue to use a 20 grade for the winter,but come summer I've got a ton of Amsoil sso 10w-30 that will be going into it. In the summer that trucks sole purpose will be to pull our trailer or do dump runs with the dump trailer. I've got my mustang for my dd,and my Harley.
I just don't think it's right for a manufacturer to threaten to pull your warrantee if you choose to use an oil they say is fine to use somewhere else,but not here.
Even if there is no additional wear by using a slightly thinner oil I just don't see how a manufacturer can talk out of both sides of their mouths at the same time

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: tudorart
"^^2nd. How about extended high speed driving?"
Where can you legally do that in the US? That's not Honda's intended use!
If you do, Honda does not recommend/cover it and it's not even included in the severe schedule. Just like racing, towing and driving with a roof top carrier at highway speeds for extended periods of time.


Many US owners manuals give one and only one oil choice, under any and all driving conditions. IMO that is wrong and one of my pet peeves. I take a lot of heart for that opinion, but I'm also in good company. These same engines in
other parts of the world can use different viscosity oils to meet different driving profiles and vehicle use patterns. No longer so for many of the newer vehicles sold in the US. These engines [same year] are exactly the same internally in all parts of the world. IMO if a vehicle is driven hard in hot climates or towing for example, bumping up from 20 to 30 grade oil would be beneficial.

I agree with you 100%. Why here do we get potential warrantee exclusion if that very same engine somewhere else can use a different grade oil. If it's acceptable in Europe for example why is it not an option for use here.
In my personal application in my hemi the 20 grades that have been used up until now don't seemed to have harmed anything,and to be honest the way I drive it I will continue to use a 20 grade for the winter,but come summer I've got a ton of Amsoil sso 10w-30 that will be going into it. In the summer that trucks sole purpose will be to pull our trailer or do dump runs with the dump trailer. I've got my mustang for my dd,and my Harley.
I just don't think it's right for a manufacturer to threaten to pull your warrantee if you choose to use an oil they say is fine to use somewhere else,but not here.
Even if there is no additional wear by using a slightly thinner oil I just don't see how a manufacturer can talk out of both sides of their mouths at the same time


Be careful what you say, we shouldn't care nor mention what people in other parts of the world are using in their cars.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
The label says OW-20 (oh double u twenty) in actuality.


LOL! You're right. I missed that.

 

[lexus114]

Originally Posted By: RF Overlord
I like the last item:

*Ask your sales representative for more details.


Along with the new oil certification, they must be giving all their sales reps memberships to BITOG.



No, thats what they should be doing!

 

[KCJeep]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek


I actually agree with each of these claims about 0W-20 oils:

The VERY FIRST thing on their list is improved fuel economy, yet we doubters here on BITOG are repeatedly told it has nothing to do with CAFE. Right......

 

[Clevy]

Wouldn't a 0w-30 get the same start up pumpability as well as whatever else that fancy picture says since it's also a 0w.
I know that a 20 grade being slightly thinner will get a negligeable consumption decrease once the oil is up to operating temp but shouldn't they be equal at start up?
I suppose it depends on the oil and whether it's a "thick" 20 grade or a "thin" 30 grade right?
Our conversations must look like lunacy to outsiders looking in,on how we can split even the finest hair.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Wouldn't a 0w-30 get the same start up pumpability as well as whatever else that fancy picture says since it's also a 0w.
I know that a 20 grade being slightly thinner will get a negligeable consumption decrease once the oil is up to operating temp but shouldn't they be equal at start up?
I suppose it depends on the oil and whether it's a "thick" 20 grade or a "thin" 30 grade right?
Our conversations must look like lunacy to outsiders looking in,on how we can split even the finest hair.


No.

The MRV requirements for a 20 weight to qualify as a 0W are different than for a 30 weight, which are different from a 40 weight...etc.

For example, using three Mobil 1 oils:

MRV @ -40C:
0w20: 9,200cP
0w30: 13,250cP
0w40: 31,000cP

You can clearly see how much lighter the AFE oils are over the 0w40, despite the fact that they are all 0Wxx.

 

[PSE]

reduced emissions and cold start wear.. no doubt. I think there are trade-offs for such low vis oils.

Based on the OCI recommendations for my Sienna, I question the TGMO's ability to protect at higher operating loads/speeds. Why should having a roof rack installed cut the Toyota recommended OCI from 10k to 5k? I get that the power demand with the rack is higher but that seems like an awfully thin margin between ok to 10k and only ok to 5k.

Also, I am guessing that Mobil, sopus, castrol, etc... go with their own vis 0w-20 specs, rather than the lower vis TGMO style, to capture all of the 0w-20 customers operation cycles rather than just a small relatively known cross-section (like Toyota).

 

[Norm Olt]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
CO2 is an emission.

And WATER VAPOR is the greatest (so-called) "Greenhouse Gas" by FAR...

With cow crepitation not too far behind!

Cheers!

p.s. Are we allowed to say "behind" anymore? But, but...

 

[aquariuscsm]

Originally Posted By: tudorart
Where can you legally do that in the US?


Around Austin,Tx the posted speed limit is 85.

 

[RamFan]

Has anyone ever thought that maybe the reason why the same engine uses a different oil viscosity across borders is due to oil supply in a given area? Ford and Honda pretty much simultaneously started specifying 5w20 at the same time for the U.S, this was probably done to gain an advantage on MPG over their competitors. Ford not only pushed their Motorcraft oils heavily and proved their worth but Ford also sells their oil in stores making it more readily accessible. Furthermore, with the U.S.'s massive automobile market, it makes sense that oil manufacturers would start producing and selling 5w20 oils to the public.

In other countries, "gas hogs" aren't nearly as common and gaining an advantage through lighter oils is not a priority. If Ford decided to also specify 5w20 for engines in Italy for instance the consumer would be forced to buy the oil through the dealer because no 5w20 is on the market. While Ford might enjoy that, their customers certainly would not. Furthermore, it might not be in the interest of the oil manufacturers to make an oil that is 5w20 and meets Ford's Europe requirements to market to the public because of the lack of demand. So if a car in Europe reaches an acceptable MPG using 5w40 it might not be advantage to spec 5w20 for an extra 1-2mpg.

Don't get me wrong. I'm sure that CAFE and higher efficiency in general is the priority of US oil specifications, but this does not mean that these oils are less protective than their w30 and w40 counterparts. If the U.S. had an Autobahn, or had at the very least vast stretches of 85MPH interstates then possibly it would be harmful for 5w20. If that was the case the car manufacturer would most certainly spec two different weights for certain driving conditions. I know we like to joke around and say that manufacturers only care about their equipment lasting through the warranty period but let's not kid ourselves. All car manufacturers are going to build a machine and spec lubricating fluids that they think are going to be the absolute best for their vehicles. Do they make mistakes? Absolutely. However, this is not some vast conspiracy created to fool the American public to buy their vehicles because of a 1mpg advantage and then have them buy a new car at 100,001 miles because of an engine failure.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: Trav
Nice Green enviro weenie label.

This is the best part..
Reduced wear on both cold start and fast idle. What about the rest of the time?



Isn't it possible that it could offer the same protection the rest of the time while reducing wear at the points during which the engine experiences most of its wear?


Given that cold start is more than just how quickly oil gets to places (e.g. see the sequence IV tests, which purposely hold the oil at a temperature where the oil is too cold to activate the additives in the cam region), saying that xW-20 offers more "cold start protection" is patently a stretch, when it's the period between cold, and activated additives that's most of "cold start wear"

http://www.stlehouston.com/2HoustonSTLE/2011-2012/Program/Lubricant Additives-Heverly-2012_2_8.pdf P20

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
In my personal application in my hemi the 20 grades that have been used up until now don't seemed to have harmed anything,and to be honest the way I drive it I will continue to use a 20 grade for the winter,but come summer I've got a ton of Amsoil sso 10w-30 that will be going into it. In the summer that trucks sole purpose will be to pull our trailer or do dump runs with the dump trailer. I've got my mustang for my dd,and my Harley.

That sounds reasonable and sensible and exactly what i did with my Expedition.
You matching the lube to the conditions. IMHO you cant do any better than that.

 

[RF Overlord]

Originally Posted By: RamFan
All car manufacturers are going to build a machine and spec lubricating fluids that they think are going to be the absolute best for their vehicles.
One would hope that was the case, but I believe the truth is that they are going to spec what gives them the highest profit margin even if that comes at the expense of ultimate longevity, since anything that happens after the warranty is not their concern.

I'm not normally a conspiracy theorist, I do believe that the manufacturers have a very real interest in squeezing every last % of MPG out of their vehicles to comply with or exceed CAFE mandates as not doing so comes out of their bottom line.

 

[edhackett]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: Trav
Nice Green enviro weenie label.

This is the best part..
Reduced wear on both cold start and fast idle. What about the rest of the time?



Isn't it possible that it could offer the same protection the rest of the time while reducing wear at the points during which the engine experiences most of its wear?


Of course its possible but why don't they come out and say it instead of just cold start and fast idle?


Because Toyota doesn't believe that it does. They specify heavier oils in some engine families in certain vehicles expected to work a bit harder. In other models they suggest moving up in viscosity under certain conditions.

The Toyota owners can back this up with data from their owner's manuals.

Ed

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: edhackett
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: Trav
Nice Green enviro weenie label.

This is the best part..
Reduced wear on both cold start and fast idle. What about the rest of the time?



Isn't it possible that it could offer the same protection the rest of the time while reducing wear at the points during which the engine experiences most of its wear?


Of course its possible but why don't they come out and say it instead of just cold start and fast idle?


Because Toyota doesn't believe that it does. They specify heavier oils in some engine families in certain vehicles expected to work a bit harder. In other models they suggest moving up in viscosity under certain conditions.

The Toyota owners can back this up with data from their owner's manuals.

Ed

If that's the case i agree 100%.