(0w-20) - I can't believe I'm saying this...

[tpattgeek]

I've always been a firm believe of "as thin as possible..." which is why I've chosen to use 0w-20 in both of my relatively new vehicles. When I switched to it from 5w-20 in my Civic, (I thought) I noticed a quieter engine and better fuel mileage.

Well, after doing an OC a couple of weeks ago, my engine has a noticeable amount of chatter coming from it. It almost sounds like valves, but it's not constant. It's just a knock here and there while idling and gets much noisier when revving. I actually had it at Honda today just for a check-up before the warranty is up, and I was talking to the tech about it. He said it sounded normal... When I mentioned I switched to 0w-20 a couple of years ago, he said that could definitely make it noisier. He said it obviously won't affect or damage anything, but he did recommend going back to 5w-20. He said the newer model Civics that actually call for 0w-20 have "tightened up" specs, and that the older ones (e.g. 2007) are designed for 5w-20.

Who new? I always thought it didn't call for 0w-20 because it wasn't as popular and rigorously tested as it is nowadays... I have ALWAYS denied any louder engine noises people claim when trying a thinner oil, but I've finally seen it for myself. No doubt it's an amazing oil, but I just can't see myself continuing to use it with more noise coming from the engine.

So, would you continue to use it if it made your engine noisier? BTW, it's Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0w20. I'm looking to give Honda's 5w-20 Blend a shot next go round... any other ideas of what to try? I used Mobil 1 5w-20 for the first couple years of the cars life, but I'd like to give something else a shot. I have 6 months to think about it...

 

[SLCraig]

Strange to me that the cars would have tightened up their specs. The R18 engine continues to be used, you'd think they would change the engine code, power rating, displacement, etc, if anything else had actually changed. It is the same as its been since 06, at least on paper. I've yet to try 0w20 in my 2011 R18.. I'll try it sometime for sure. Can say I ran 5w30 once though and I did not notice any difference in noise or performance at all.

 

[tpattgeek]

Originally Posted By: SLCraig
Strange to me that the cars would have tightened up their specs. The R18 engine continues to be used, you'd think they would change the engine code, power rating, displacement, etc, if anything else had actually changed. It is the same as its been since 06, at least on paper. I've yet to try 0w20 in my 2011 R18.. I'll try it sometime for sure. Can say I ran 5w30 once though and I did not notice any difference in noise or performance at all.


Good to know. Yeah, I mentioned to him I thought it was the same exact engine, why's it calling for a different oil... I wasn't really clear if he meant tightened up the physical specs or emissions/govt. specs. I'm pretty ignorant with govt. specs and whatnot, so that may have been what he meant. In which case, 0w-20 would be fine, right?

I'd like to hear a 2011/2012 with only 0w-20 and ~30k miles on it. I wonder if it's the fact I've been using it for 2 years and it's more "pure", meaning, all the old mixture of any 5w-20 is now almost completely gone... again,

 

[daves87rs]

Can't hurt...give it a try.

 

[Dakota1820]

I'm the opposite. I like thicker. 0w40 has to be my favorite weight. Good cold flow and thick enough to stop wear when hot

my moms focus takes 5w20 almost makes me cringe. And surprisingly when cold outside and engine is cold that thing chatters like no bodies business

 

[tig1]

This noise may be an accessory or tensioner pulley bearing. I recently had a noise that I could hear coming from the Fusion engine. At first it was faint, but as time went on the noise got more pronounced. I even wondered if it wasn't something in the VVT. Finally the noise was so bad I had to address it. I purchased a mechanics stethescope and checked all of the accessories. Turned out to be the water pump. After replaceing the WP my engine is very quite once again. One way to check this is to release the accessory belt and start the engine and run it briefly. It's amazing how quite an engine is without the belt and accessories. I for one don't believe the 5-20 is is your answer. The dealer doesn't have a clue about 0-20 or 5-20 oils.

 

[tpattgeek]

Originally Posted By: tig1
This noise may be an accessory or tensioner pulley bearing. I recently had a noise that I could hear coming from the Fusion engine. At first it was faint, but as time went on the noise got more pronounced. I even wondered if it wasn't something in the VVT. Finally the noise was so bad I had to address it. I purchased a mechanics stethescope and checked all of the accessories. Turned out to be the water pump. After replaceing the WP my engine is very quite once again. One way to check this is to release the accessory belt and start the engine and run it briefly. It's amazing how quite an engine is without the belt and accessories. I for one don't believe the 5-20 is is your answer. The dealer doesn't have a clue about 0-20 or 5-20 oils.


Good tips. I may give that a shot. BTW, it's not a crazy loud noise, just a barely above average tick. The injectors are loud enough, but you can tell there's something else there making noise. I compared side-by-side with another R18 with over 100k miles and a valve adjustment and his was noticeably quieter. He also uses default oil spec. If I get a bug up my arse to change the belt, I'll test it that way. If not, I'll see how the different oil works out.

Edit: About valve adjustments... the tech said they don't even recommend it until 120k miles or so (like manual states) and most of the time they don't ever need one since the parts in these newer engines don't wear like they did on older vehicles.

 

[d00df00d]

If this is a car you're dead-set on keeping for as long as humanly possible, do oil analysis and decide based on that. Make sure you pick a lab that offers a PQ index or uses rotrode spectroscopy.

If you're just looking for something that'll work until you get tired of the car or something else (e.g. the transmission) breaks, then either of the oils you're looking at will probably work, so feel free to use the one that makes you feel better.

 

[JOD]

Mobil 1 0W20 is thicker than many 5W20s, so I don't think viscosity has anything to with the noise.

 

[Maxima97]

That's why 5W20 Motorcraft syn-blend is the default oil at honda dealer.

 

[tpattgeek]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
If this is a car you're dead-set on keeping for as long as humanly possible, do oil analysis and decide based on that. Make sure you pick a lab that offers a PQ index or uses rotrode spectroscopy.

If you're just looking for something that'll work until you get tired of the car or something else (e.g. the transmission) breaks, then either of the oils you're looking at will probably work, so feel free to use the one that makes you feel better.


I'm planning on keeping the car as long as humanly possible. My step-son will be driving it in 4 years...

At least I have it on file that I complained about it now, in case something happens in the future. I do have an extended warranty, but I'm not expecting anything tragic to happen.

 

[teddyboy]

I wonder if the tech knew what he was talking about. Moreover, this experience violates everything I've learned about viscosity from BITOG. The operating temperature visosity is the same for 0W20 and 5W20 so there should be absolutely no difference in lubrication when you're fully warmed up. The only difference in the viscosities is at start up temperature where the 0 flows better than the 5. If a 5W20 was causing chatter in the newer engine, the tech's tolerance argument could make sense. Maybe 5W isn't flowing well enough for the tighter engine. But the improved flow of 0W causing chatter in the older engine because the specs weren't as tight doesn't add up. It leaves me kind of wondering, say what?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: teddyboy
I wonder if the tech knew what he was talking about. Moreover, this experience violates everything I've learned about viscosity from BITOG. The operating temperature visosity is the same for 0W20 and 5W20 so there should be absolutely no difference in lubrication when you're fully warmed up. The only difference in the viscosities is at start up temperature where the 0 flows better than the 5. If a 5W20 was causing chatter in the newer engine, the tech's tolerance argument could make sense. Maybe 5W isn't flowing well enough for the tighter engine. But the improved flow of 0W causing chatter in the older engine because the specs weren't as tight doesn't add up. It leaves me kind of wondering, say what?


Bingo.

0w20 isn't any thinner (relatively speaking) than 5w20 at operating temperature unless that PARTICULAR oil has a lower HTHS for example. Which then has nothing to do with the grade and everything to do with the oil itself.

Many 0w20's are actually HEAVIER 20-weight oils than their 5w20 counterparts.

 

[tpattgeek]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: teddyboy
I wonder if the tech knew what he was talking about. Moreover, this experience violates everything I've learned about viscosity from BITOG. The operating temperature visosity is the same for 0W20 and 5W20 so there should be absolutely no difference in lubrication when you're fully warmed up. The only difference in the viscosities is at start up temperature where the 0 flows better than the 5. If a 5W20 was causing chatter in the newer engine, the tech's tolerance argument could make sense. Maybe 5W isn't flowing well enough for the tighter engine. But the improved flow of 0W causing chatter in the older engine because the specs weren't as tight doesn't add up. It leaves me kind of wondering, say what?


Bingo.

0w20 isn't any thinner (relatively speaking) than 5w20 at operating temperature unless that PARTICULAR oil has a lower HTHS for example. Which then has nothing to do with the grade and everything to do with the oil itself.

Many 0w20's are actually HEAVIER 20-weight oils than their 5w20 counterparts.


OK, so does anyone know if this is in fact true and could be the cause of the ruckus?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: tpattgeek
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: teddyboy
I wonder if the tech knew what he was talking about. Moreover, this experience violates everything I've learned about viscosity from BITOG. The operating temperature visosity is the same for 0W20 and 5W20 so there should be absolutely no difference in lubrication when you're fully warmed up. The only difference in the viscosities is at start up temperature where the 0 flows better than the 5. If a 5W20 was causing chatter in the newer engine, the tech's tolerance argument could make sense. Maybe 5W isn't flowing well enough for the tighter engine. But the improved flow of 0W causing chatter in the older engine because the specs weren't as tight doesn't add up. It leaves me kind of wondering, say what?


Bingo.

0w20 isn't any thinner (relatively speaking) than 5w20 at operating temperature unless that PARTICULAR oil has a lower HTHS for example. Which then has nothing to do with the grade and everything to do with the oil itself.

Many 0w20's are actually HEAVIER 20-weight oils than their 5w20 counterparts.


OK, so does anyone know if this is in fact true and could be the cause of the ruckus?


What oil were you running before? What oil are you running now?

And yes, this is 100% true, the SAE grade on the container encapsulates a "range" of viscosity values. Some oils are heavier than others within the same grade.

The number BEFORE the "W" is an indication of an oil's cold temperature performance and has nothing to do with the oil's weight when hot. A 0wXX's MRV is measured at -40C, versus -35C for a 5wXX.

 

[bepperb]

Originally Posted By: chevyboy14
I'm the opposite. I like thicker. 0w40 has to be my favorite weight. Good cold flow and thick enough to stop wear when hot

my moms focus takes 5w20 almost makes me cringe. And surprisingly when cold outside and engine is cold that thing chatters like no bodies business


How much oil does your mom's focus burn? Something tells me her 20 weight is beating your 40 weight.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: tpattgeek
I've always been a firm believe of "as thin as possible..." which is why I've chosen to use 0w-20 in both of my relatively new vehicles. When I switched to it from 5w-20 in my Civic, (I thought) I noticed a quieter engine and better fuel mileage.

Well, after doing an OC a couple of weeks ago, my engine has a noticeable amount of chatter coming from it. It almost sounds like valves, but it's not constant. It's just a knock here and there while idling and gets much noisier when revving. I actually had it at Honda today just for a check-up before the warranty is up, and I was talking to the tech about it. He said it sounded normal... When I mentioned I switched to 0w-20 a couple of years ago, he said that could definitely make it noisier. He said it obviously won't affect or damage anything, but he did recommend going back to 5w-20. He said the newer model Civics that actually call for 0w-20 have "tightened up" specs, and that the older ones (e.g. 2007) are designed for 5w-20.

Who new? I always thought it didn't call for 0w-20 because it wasn't as popular and rigorously tested as it is nowadays... I have ALWAYS denied any louder engine noises people claim when trying a thinner oil, but I've finally seen it for myself. No doubt it's an amazing oil, but I just can't see myself continuing to use it with more noise coming from the engine.

So, would you continue to use it if it made your engine noisier? BTW, it's Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0w20. I'm looking to give Honda's 5w-20 Blend a shot next go round... any other ideas of what to try? I used Mobil 1 5w-20 for the first couple years of the cars life, but I'd like to give something else a shot. I have 6 months to think about it...

The main differences between 0W-20 synthetic and 5W-20 synthetic for a given oil line (such as Mobil 1):

(1) 0W-20 offers better starting at extremely cold temperatures and
(2) 5W-20 has lower NOACK and therefore cooks slower and you can get a longer oil-change interval out of it.

For 5000-mile OCIs both should provide similar protection against wear and valve noise.

The SN/GF-5 Mobil 1 line, especially the 0W-20, has a very skinny (not concentrated) additive package and it worries me and I personally don't like it. Some others love it. Often times the problem may be arising from the oil brand and line, not the viscosity.

Last but not least, the valvetrain runs in the boundary-lubrication regime (metal-to-metal contact) and the antiwear and extreme-pressure additives such as ZDDP and moly make the most difference there. Higher viscosity also reduces the wear and friction in the boundary-lubrication regime (yes, higher viscosity results in less valvetrain friction, despite more overall friction) but 0W-20 and 5W-20 have the same hot viscosity; so, there should be no difference there.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan

The main differences between 0W-20 synthetic and 5W-20 synthetic for a given oil line (such as Mobil 1):

(1) 0W-20 offers better starting at extremely cold temperatures and

(2) 5W-20 has lower NOACK and therefore cooks slower and you can get a longer oil-change interval out of it.



Not always. Mobil 1 0w40 has a NOACK of 8.8%, which is incredibly low by anybody's standard, and especially for an oil with such a spread to it!

Quote:
For 5000-mile OCIs both should provide similar protection against wear and valve noise.

The SN/GF-5 Mobil 1 line, especially the 0W-20, has a very skinny (not concentrated) additive package and it worries me and I personally don't like it.


Is this just based on a VOA? With all the new organic compounds (and the use of trinuclear Moly) I'm wondering just how small the pinhole is that we are viewing through when trying to glean information about an oil's and additization (and through extrapolation a stab at its potential performance) levels through something like a Blackstone VOA.

Quote:
Some others love it. Often times the problem may be arising from the oil brand and line, not the viscosity.

Last but not least, the valvetrain runs in the boundary-lubrication regime (metal-to-metal contact) and the antiwear and extreme-pressure additives such as ZDDP and moly make the most difference there. Higher viscosity also reduces the wear and friction in the boundary-lubrication regime (yes, higher viscosity results in less valvetrain friction, despite more overall friction) but 0W-20 and 5W-20 have the same hot viscosity; so, there should be no difference there.


Agreed. But then how much of the valvetrain is rollerized plays a role here.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Not always. Mobil 1 0w40 has a NOACK of 8.8%, which is incredibly low by anybody's standard, and especially for an oil with such a spread to it!

Sounds like Mobil 1 0W-40 is a mostly PAO-based oil. Impressive NOACK, but that's how PAO-based oils (such as Amsoil Signature Line) are. Mobil 1 0W-40 seems to be a great oil if you're comfortable with its high HTHS viscosity or if your engine requires high HTHS viscosity. It has great ZDDP, moly, and initial TBN as well.

But then I said "within a given oil line." I wouldn't consider Mobil 1 0W-40, which is a high-HTHS-viscosity oil, in the same line as Mobil 1 0W-20 and 0w30 and expect all their NOACK to be similar. Chances are that 0W-20 and 0w30 have a lot of Group III in the mix and have NOACK around 12%.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: Maxima97
That's why 5W20 Motorcraft syn-blend is the default oil at honda dealer.


This is dealer-specific. Both local Honda dealers around here are Valvoline shops.

I've had three different oils in my K24 engine (Valvoline 5w20 conventional, Pennzoil Ultra 5W-20, and Mobil 1 0W-20), and the Mobil 1 0W-20 has been the quietest so far. The Pennzoil Ultra is a close second.

I've had many different oils in my J35 engine (including many 5W-20s, both conventional and synthetic, and Mobil 1 0W-20), and the Mobil 1 0W-20 has been the quietest so far in this engine as well. Again, Pennzoil Ultra is an extremely close second...almost indistinguishable from the Mobil 1 in this one actually.