04 Civic questions

[flatlandtacoma]

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Originally posted by The Critic:
Careful here.

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The transmission should be drained and refilled with new fluid according to the time and distance recommendations in the maintenance schedule.

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To thoroughly flush the transmission, the technician should drain and refill it with Honda ATF-Z1, then drive the vehicle for a short distance. Do this three times. Then drain and refill the transmission a final time...

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See the difference? If they wanted you to "flush" the transmission using the procedure outlined in the manual at scheduled intervals, they would've said to follow the flush procedure. But they did not. They asked for one to drain and refill the transmission only. And its quite evident that they only want the unit drained and refilled, as they begin recommending more frequent changes after the initial, as only 40-42% of the fluid is replaced with a single drain and refill.

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But when you go to the Maintenance Schedule, it says to "Replace automatic transmission fluid" at those intervals. A single drain/fill does not equal a replacement. Multiple drain/fills are required to achieve a replacement.

Here is a scan of the Maintenance Schedule for severe service, 2004 Accord. It seems a little more sane in recommending replacement at 60K then 30K after that.

 

[The Critic]

There are two service schedules, one for severe, one for normal. You posted the one for severe service.

Your definition of ATF replacement may be different than Honda's definition of ATF replacement, as outlined in the "ATF replacement procedure" I stole from a 2004+ Acura TL's factory service manual:

There is absolutely no mention of following the flush procedure, only a drain and refill. Think about it. If the flush procedure were to be followed, why would Honda recommend a more frequent service interval after the initial change?

 

[flatlandtacoma]

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Originally posted by The Critic:
...Your definition of ATF replacement may be different than Honda's definition of ATF replacement, as outlined in the "ATF replacement procedure" I stole from a 2004+ Acura TL's factory service manual:
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There is absolutely no mention of following the flush procedure, only a drain and refill.

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Well, I'll be durned.

I stand corrected. I never would have guessed that they would consider a drain/refill that replaces less than half of the fluid to be a fluid "replacement". So Honda really does want people to believe they can drive on 58% of the original factory fill ATF-Z1 for 210,000 miles! (If you qualify for normal service)
That's really insane.

My guess is anyone who follows that schedule and procedure will be replacing the transmission more often than the fluid.

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Originally posted by The Critic:
Think about it. If the flush procedure were to be followed, why would Honda recommend a more frequent service interval after the initial change?

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You lost me there, I don't see the connection.

 

[flatlandtacoma]

Are you sure theres not a step 7, disconnect fluid hose and pump the nasty old fluid from the torque converter to a bucket and refill again? Or step 7, drive a short distance and repeat steps 1-6?

 

[The Critic]

A partial fluid change is enough to refresh the additives and remove most of the "solid" material, as its stuck to the magnetic drain plug. Transmission Fluid suffers from little contamination in comparison to engine oil due to the lack of external contamination (i.e. dirt) and no blow-by, hence the long drain intervals and the need for only a partial fluid change.

Initial fluid change is at 6-yr/120k, then 5-yr or 90k thereafter. The key here is to pay close attention to the "time" limits for the service intervals, as many drivers often reach the time limits before the actual mileage limits.

And besides, the fluid lasts a long time anyway, regardless of what some may believe. Fluid related issues are rare for vehicles made within the last five years given the wave toward improved fluid quality to handle the lifetime fill requirements and higher operating temperatures. Most transmission failures in the newer vehicles today are not caused by poor maintenance practices, but by poor design. Think about the Honda transmission fiascos, all design related.

To answer your question: the reason (or one of the reasons) for the more frequent service interval after the initial fluid change is due to the amount of fluid being replaced, I believe. Thus, the need to replace on a more frequent basis after the initial fluid change to remove more of the "old" fluid, I'm guessing. If Honda recommended one to follow the "flush" procedure, there would be no need to change the fluid more frequently thereafter. One would follow the (120K or whatever) service interval again as most of the fluid would've been replaced. See what I mean?

 

[The Critic]

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Originally posted by flatlandtacoma:
Are you sure theres not a step 7, disconnect fluid hose and pump the nasty old fluid from the torque converter to a bucket and refill again? Or step 7, drive a short distance and repeat steps 1-6?

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Nope. In fact, many of the newer Honda 5-spd Automatics no longer run lines to a radiator heat exchanger, so one cannot even install a cooler if they wanted to.

 

[flatlandtacoma]

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Originally posted by The Critic:
A partial fluid change is enough to refresh the additives and remove most of the "solid" material, as its stuck to the magnetic drain plug. Transmission Fluid suffers from little contamination in comparison to engine oil due to the lack of external contamination (i.e. dirt) and no blow-by, hence the long drain intervals and the need for only a partial fluid change.

Initial fluid change is at 6-yr/120k, then 5-yr or 90k thereafter. The key here is to pay close attention to the "time" limits for the service intervals, as many drivers often reach the time limits before the actual mileage limits.

And besides, the fluid lasts a long time anyway, regardless of what some may believe. Fluid related issues are rare for vehicles made within the last five years given the wave toward improved fluid quality to handle the lifetime fill requirements and higher operating temperatures. Most transmission failures in the newer vehicles today are not caused by poor maintenance practices, but by poor design. Think about the Honda transmission fiascos, all design related.

To answer your question: the reason (or one of the reasons) for the more frequent service interval after the initial fluid change is due to the amount of fluid being replaced, I believe. Thus, the need to replace on a more frequent basis after the initial fluid change to remove more of the "old" fluid, I'm guessing. If Honda recommended one to follow the "flush" procedure, there would be no need to change the fluid more frequently thereafter. One would follow the (120K or whatever) service interval again as most of the fluid would've been replaced. See what I mean?

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It doesn't last THAT long. It doesn't last 11 years or 210K miles. It gets hot, it gets worn out. Sure no products of combustion but you still need to get the old stuff out of there.

I think the whole 120K first transmission service is just marketing trying to show a lower cost of ownership. I think if you listen to them you can just replace a transmission every 75K and never have to worry about fluid changes!

If you want to believe that marketing stuff thats your call. I'll still give you a ride when your transmission gives out.

 

[The Critic]

Well, the additives would've been refreshed around 120k, during the initial fluid change, so it would probably be OK. Remember, I know of one situation where the vehicle was a 02 Accord 4-cyl w/160k or so. No fluid changes, harsh shifting began to develop. One drain and refill later, shifts were silky smooth. Not that I endorse doing this, as the fluid change was 30k overdue even by Honda standards, but just think of this as an example.

If I get a Honda vehicle, which if any, will be a Civic, its unlikely that I'll be following the recommended ATF change interval, so no worries there. Interestingly, the new 06+ Civics are the first Honda vehicles to have an actual ATF life monitor.

But for the record, I'll probably switch over to Amsoil ATF if I get a Civic. A 6qt fluid volume and no actual filtration in the Civic's transmission is grounds for more frequent service and upgraded fluid. I'll probably do a 2.5 qt drain/refill at every other oil change, which will probably be every 10-15k. I'd be doing much city driving, involving lots of shifting, which makes it even more important.

 

[flatlandtacoma]

Yep, that's what I do on our Accord. Single drain/refill every other oil change. Hopefully the transmission will last a long time.

 

[flatlandtacoma]

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Originally posted by The Critic:
... If I get a Honda vehicle, ...

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I thought you had a Vue with the Honda drivetrain?

 

[Chris Meutsch]

I love Amsoil's product but at 10-15k drain and fills, it's a bit uneconomical. I think you'd make it last just as long with Z-1 and you may save a few bucks depending on where you buy it.

 

[The Critic]

Me? I have a Saturn and a Toyota.

If you're spending $75 every 50k for a 10 qt "flush," why not spread out the usage of those 10 qts by doing a 3 qt drain/refill every 15k or so. That way, within a 50k period (or so), you'd still be spending the same amount of money on fluid, but the fluid will stay much fresher.

 

[asiancivicmaniac]

Wow, where do you have access to all the honda service stuff? Do you or a family member work as a mechanic or something? Because you're pretty knowledgable at 17 yo.

Can the magnet on the drain plug really catch most of the gunk that ends up in the fluid overtime? When I changed it this time the plug was filthy. Thanks for the info.

 

[Chris Meutsch]

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Originally posted by The Critic:


If you're spending $75 every 50k for a 10 qt "flush," why not spread out the usage of those 10 qts by doing a 3 qt drain/refill every 15k or so. That way, within a 50k period (or so), you'd still be spending the same amount of money on fluid, but the fluid will stay much fresher.

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Yes, your math is correct.
Have you had the experience of changing out the fluid on a 2001-2005 Civic yet? It blows. Amsoil's ATF has proven to hold up even in V-8 pickups for 55k and I don't enjoy the large stains on my driveway, plus my sore neck any more than once every 3-4 years.

 

[The Critic]

Can't possibly be worse than doing an engine oil and filter change on a '96 Saturn SL2!

 

[asiancivicmaniac]

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Originally posted by Chris Meutsch:

quote:

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Originally posted by The Critic:


If you're spending $75 every 50k for a 10 qt "flush," why not spread out the usage of those 10 qts by doing a 3 qt drain/refill every 15k or so. That way, within a 50k period (or so), you'd still be spending the same amount of money on fluid, but the fluid will stay much fresher.

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Yes, your math is correct.
Have you had the experience of changing out the fluid on a 2001-2005 Civic yet? It blows. Amsoil's ATF has proven to hold up even in V-8 pickups for 55k and I don't enjoy the large stains on my driveway, plus my sore neck any more than once every 3-4 years.

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I find it fun. It's a lot easier than changing the oil and oil filter. You can always lay a lot of newspaper or even a cardboard box down to soak up the spilled fluid. How do you get a sore neck? I'm 5'11" and chunky and I did it with out a problem.

 

[The Critic]

Btw- I have no connection to the auto industry, by myself nor with my family. All of the info I posted in avaliable online; it's there, just look.

 

[Mr Nice]

Critic,

You offer better Honda advice to fellow BITOG members than those two brother mechanics called....' Click & Clack '

I did a transmission fluid drain and refill on two different Honda Civics, one was Auto....the other 5 speed. Depending how skinny you are and how long your arms are..... you can get to the drain plug without ramps.

You simply use a regular ratchet to remove the drain plug. On my mom's 2001 Civic with 25K miles, the magnetic drain plug was super dirty (she does 99% of her driving in the city). I did 2 drain & refills (6 quarts) to get the old fluid out. No need to install a new washer for the trans.

I did both ATF drains when the car was stone cold.

[ August 14, 2006, 12:38 AM: Message edited by: LT4 Vette ]