01 Intrepid 2.7 Oil Sludge, really dirty engine, H

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Thanks lubract...
OK here is what I'm leaning to
1) Marvel with a solid cheaper mineral oil for 1000 miles
2) Bars in the Coolant
3) For the next two changes at 3k with Mobile 1 with Fram Utra
4) Thereafter 6k with Mobile 1 and Ultras
 
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Originally Posted By: 01Intrepid
Thanks lubract...
OK here is what I'm leaning to
1) Marvel with a solid cheaper mineral oil for 1000 miles
2) Bars in the Coolant
3) For the next two changes at 3k with Mobile 1 with Fram Utra
4) Thereafter 6k with Mobile 1 and Ultras


Great plan. Walmart has the Mobil1 in High Mileage form (5w-30), its got extra seal conditioners-swellers for older engines like that. Solid science behind that company. ....If you use the form of Bars I recently used, its got the oily water pump lubricant in it, nice stuff to have I think.

I used to really enjoy pushing that engine hard in my old Stratus. The Stratus/Sebring were light weight and the 200 hp screamer felt like an indycar engine to a geek like me....
 
gumout multisystem? You believe that would be better than Marvel for the first 500 or so miles? What about Auto RX, a friend at work says its awesome, another says snakeoil... I would like to do something to try to clean it prior to going syn...
 
Auto RX will not help this engine. Been there, done that ... Too much sludge. All HDEO's have a lot higher detergency than conventional PCMO's.

I'd prolly run the Bar-Leaks or Aluma-Seal to keep the pin holes sealed. Rotella T-6 full synthetic HDEO for all the detergency. Fram Ultra or WIX filter (Napa Gold same) for filtration.

See if you can squeeze on a bigger filter for more capacity. Parts store will look up gasket/thread spec and find a bigger one...

Look at maybe installing a by-pass filter (Franz) if there is an unused oil pressure gallery plug and room to fit one?

Add magnetic drain plug to catch the little bits of Fe coming off now and then...

Can you locate an old-stock can of ATF (1966 or before)? If so, it would be a good way to loosen the crud in the "sling" areas. Modern ATF will not help. This uses the same bio-fats type compounds as AutoRX, but much more effective and more of it. Use with conventional oil if you find it... Then switch to T-6
smile.gif
 
Originally Posted By: 01Intrepid
A couple recommendations for the marvel, my dad used to swear by that stuff, that was before the days synthetic. Would a 1000 mile run on the Marvel be wise before going to synthetic?

Yes!
 
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno

See if you can squeeze on a bigger filter for more capacity. Parts store will look up gasket/thread spec and find a bigger one...

Look at maybe installing a by-pass filter (Franz) if there is an unused oil pressure gallery plug and room to fit one?

Add magnetic drain plug to catch the little bits of Fe coming off now and then...

Can you locate an old-stock can of ATF (1966 or before)? If so, it would be a good way to loosen the crud in the "sling" areas. Modern ATF will not help. This uses the same bio-fats type compounds as AutoRX, but much more effective and more of it. Use with conventional oil if you find it... Then switch to T-6
smile.gif



The bigger oil filter is a great idea, I hadnt considered that, I get the impression that a little bit more oil would do a lot for this car. Pre 1966 ATF... thats interesting, I dont where Id find it. Im still entertaining ideas on a short term "cleaning" run of 500 to 1000 miles. I just on the fence on what additive. Where would I find Pre 1966 ATF.. EBAY?
 
01Intrepid Welcome to BITOG !

Looks like you are getting good advice here.

A few things worth considering:

If there is a lot of sludge "stuck" in the oil pan the amount of oil required to fill the sump will be reduced.

For example if a 5 quart sump only needs 4 quarts of oil to reach full on the dipstick; that would indicate a quart of sludge in the sump!

If your Intrepid requires the normal amount of oil for a fill that is a good indicator of little or no sludge in the sump.

I'm somewhat old school.

MMO has been in my garage as a selective preventative/cleanup for over 30 years now.
As a mild cleaner it is the gold standard for me.
I am sure other cleaners can work as well.

IMHO one thing you should avoid is too fast of a cleanup.
If the oil is "over-contaminated" with debris this can plug the oil filter in short order.
With a plugged filter the bypass valve will open allowing unfiltered oil to possibly damage bearings, etc.

As others said when the oil visually heavily contaminated; change it and the filter ASAP.
To err on the side of caution is no vice regarding this.

Regarding the oil filter bypass valve:

When an engine is first started especially on a cold morning there is a tendency for the bypass valve to open due to the cold oi being thicker.
My suggestion to address this is to use an oil with a 0W or 5W spec, 0W preferred in colder weather.
Seeing that you are in Ca.; assuming warm climate; Pennzoil yellow bottle 5W30 would be a possible candidate for the initial cleanup phase followed by Rotella T6 5W40.

Also keep the RPM low until the engine's oil is warmed up to help avoid the bypass valve opening.

I hope this and the other advice given here is helpful to you.

Good luck sir.

Rickey.
 
Originally Posted By: 01Intrepid
If this was your car and your list of issues, what would be your oil regime?


Yeah, sure. Stop relying on theory, guesswork, and anecdotal statements as the basis of your future maintenance practices.

Per Blackstone:
How long should the oil stay in the engine before I sample it?
We like to see at least 500-1000 miles to get good data. If the engine has a problem, it may very well show up with fewer miles than that, but more miles are preferred.

You've just done significant work to this engine, have no objective data from the prior owner on which to base a decision, and have no idea as to whether or not this thing is functioning properly (internally).

Pick up whatever 10w-30 and filter you want.
No oil additives.
Run for 1,000 miles.
Get an analysis.
Report back.
 
Originally Posted By: 01Intrepid
gumout multisystem? You believe that would be better than Marvel for the first 500 or so miles? What about Auto RX, a friend at work says its awesome, another says snakeoil... I would like to do something to try to clean it prior to going syn...


Your plan is a good one. Like on shampoo instructions "Rinse and Repeat".

Gumout MultiSystem (white can at walmart, use half a can in a sump that size) has PolyEther Amine (PEA) in it, and that is thought to be one of the best cleaners. Other products also use PEA, not sure which off the top of my head. (I know SeaFoam does NOT.) The MMO idea may work though, as its got some milder solvents, as seen from an analysis from a while back, no PEA but good solvents anyway. I don't know much about AutoRx.
 
Originally Posted By: lubricatosaurus
Gumout MultiSystem (white can at walmart, use half a can in a sump that size) has PolyEther Amine (PEA) in it, and that is thought to be one of the best cleaners. Other products also use PEA, not sure which off the top of my head. (I know SeaFoam does NOT.) The MMO idea may work though, as its got some milder solvents, as seen from an analysis from a while back, no PEA but good solvents anyway. I don't know much about AutoRx.


You're apparently merely passing-on the benefits of PEA, as a fuel-system product, to performance in the crankcase.

Please provide some data that demonstrates this suitability. Thanks.
 
Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
You're apparently merely passing-on the benefits of PEA, as a fuel-system product, to performance in the crankcase.

Please provide some data that demonstrates this suitability. Thanks.


Chemists have stated it repeatedly, that PEA is a great cleaner. If you think PEA will suddenly stop working in the oil supply, then I hope you have data to back that up. There are other solvents in Gumout Multi and MMO that work too, which is why I also said MMO will work to some extent as well. But you want exact data, well here it is: Gumout Multi remove 5.6873 grams carbon and varnish per 1,324.3 miles. Measured by cats wearing lab coats.

Gumout recommends about an oz per quart of oil added.

MolaKule is with you though, not thinking PEA is "for" engine oil:

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
A similar question was asked some time ago and the answer is still a no, not for use in engine oil.

PEA is used to enhance combustion and to reduce upper cylinder area deposits.


Granted a lot of this solvent/cleaner chemistry is a matter of expert opinion (chemists). You can choose to believe chemists or not, your choice. They are cheap enough that its worth a try.
 
Originally Posted By: Rickey
01Intrepid Welcome to BITOG !

Looks like you are getting good advice here.

A few things worth considering:

If there is a lot of sludge "stuck" in the oil pan the amount of oil required to fill the sump will be reduced.

For example if a 5 quart sump only needs 4 quarts of oil to reach full on the dipstick; that would indicate a quart of sludge in the sump!

If your Intrepid requires the normal amount of oil for a fill that is a good indicator of little or no sludge in the sump.

I'm somewhat old school.

MMO has been in my garage as a selective preventative/cleanup for over 30 years now.
As a mild cleaner it is the gold standard for me.
I am sure other cleaners can work as well.

IMHO one thing you should avoid is too fast of a cleanup.
If the oil is "over-contaminated" with debris this can plug the oil filter in short order.

I pulled the pan and completely cleaned it while doing the preemptive wtr pump, timing chain and tentioner, it was coated but not built-up. Im getting the feeling that MMO is pretty universally accepted as the proven cleaning agent of choice.
 
Originally Posted By: lubricatosaurus
But you want exact data, well here it is: Gumout Multi remove 5.6873 grams carbon and varnish per 1,324.3 miles. Measured by cats wearing lab coats.


So not only do you completely lack any substantive knowledge of the subject we're speaking about (mechanism by which PEA works), but have additionally neglected to do any research whatsoever to educate yourself before making statements/recommendations.

That's just wonderful.

Originally Posted By: lubricatosaurus
MolaKule is with you though, not thinking PEA is "for" engine oil


I'm not surprised.
 
Ramblejam, when you're done trolling, if you can stop being rude, you can supply evidence that PEA stops being effective when in oil. Gumout chemists say its fine in oil, you say something (?) or do you? Try to be clear in how PEA is bad in oil. Mechanisms, evidence. Then maybe we won't know you as the resident Troll.
 
I'll ask this again: Do you understand the mechanism by which PEA is effective in the combustion chamber?

Your attempt at an ad hominem rebuttal is absurd. Then, you follow that up by trying the "burden of proof" diversion, in that the burden of proof is not on you (the person making the claim), but with me to disprove.

Doesn't work that way.

Originally Posted By: lubricatosaurus
cuz its got the PolyEther Amine we want.

Originally Posted By: lubricatosaurus
PolyEther Amine (PEA) in it, and that is thought to be one of the best cleaners

Originally Posted By: lubricatosaurus
Chemists have stated it repeatedly, that PEA is a great cleaner


So, in summation, you've provided absolutely no evidence whatsoever, and just continually parrot that PEA is a "good/great cleaner" in the crankcase because of suitability in a combustion environment.

Got it.
thumbsup2.gif
 
Ramblejam, there must be too much bourbon in KY for you.
You have continually failed to address why you think PEA miraculously stops working as a cleaner/solvent in the engine oil. The subject here is not fuel CC physics, only oil.

As soon as you stick to the subject of oil cleaning, you'll no longer be labelled the troll.
 
Thankyou everyone for your input I believe I have the best plan possible to keep this car running as long as possible.
1) A dose of Marvel for the first 1000 miles then oil change
2) Bars coolant additive to help prevent a possible weeping/leaing Water Pump.
3) Mobile 1 High Mileage w/ fram ultra (largest capasity filter I can find with same thread pattern and gasket diameter) for the next two oil changes at 3000 miles
4) Then changes every 5000 miles.
5) After the first 7000 miles ill do the oil analysis...my thought is that crud and sludge will hopefully be cleaned up by then and Ill be getting a true indication on whats happening.
I believe this engine can be just as reliable as any other as long as the oil is kept in pristine condition. These cars can be found for $1000 with less than 100k in clean condition becasue of all the oil related issues. Hopefully by becomeing an oil natzi it will last a fair amout of time. My son really likes it, and never thought he could get such a nice car for so cheap. We are happy
 
All #1 is going to do is dilute the additives in your oil, and #2 is just going to clog your rad and heater core.
 
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