Engine Failure related to oil.

[buster]

This was from Amsoil's FAQ page.

quote:

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Federal Mogul Corporation, a manufacturer of engine bearings, pistons, connecting rods and other engine parts, studied over 7,000 case histories of bearing distress and engine failure and never found engine oil to be the cause of a failure. Dirt, the number one cause of engine failure, was found to be responsible for 43.4% of failures, and insufficient lubrication, the second most common cause of failure, was responsible for 16.6% of failures. Insufficient lubrication is the general term used when not enough oil gets through to the engine to lubricate it (lack of oil volume).

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Flow obviously is important so running a thick 50wt. in a tight engine, as Bob and others have stated, isn't always the answer. Engines rarely fail due to oils, but I bet in high performance cars, it could be different. This is just more proof that thicker is not better and that flow plays a huge role. I still think Steve Bergin could be right and that viscosity has little to do with wear. With modern engines being so well built, I really think the 20wt oils will do fine.

[ August 22, 2003, 11:37 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[JohnBrowning]

buster, their was a recent post by Erion. He posted some information that apperaered in the latest lube publications. It clearly stated that most Asain manufactures have found 5W20 to be less then addequate for protecting the timeing chain from premature wear. They want to to set a minium amount of phospherious(sp) at .06% to try to protect their timeing chains from premature wear with these CAFE friendly 5W20 oils. This seems funy seeing how Ford has begun to have timeing chain problems with their Modular V8 and have only developed this problem on a massive scale since wide spread use of 5W20 was introduced!

To make it even more odd you do not see JPN auto maker recomending 5W20 any place else other then USA.

How do we know that the engine is not already getting plenty of oil flow with M1 10W30? Why do identical engines have different recomendations in Japan, Western Europe and North America? Could marketing play a role?

I think Bergin was referring to cold start pumpability was he not? If so then what margin of wear can elimanated by switching from M1 10W30 to M1 5W20? I am also woundering how well 5W20 protects under shock loading, high load low speed conditions and high temp high speed driveing?

I am wateing to see how these vechiles are doing after 150,000-200,000 miles of 5W20. I am going to find this really interesting!

 

[buster]

I agree with you John. For speeds that we see here in the US, I think 20wts are fine. I think there are so many variables. Clearances, HP, driving style etc. I think running a thick oil in a engine with tight clearances can do more harm then good in terms of wear. There has to be a balance. It will be interesting!

 

[Al]

This discussion will never die. It really depends on factors like ambient temp, driving conditions, characteristics of the engine. (IMHO) It is quite possible that the timing chains are an Achilies heel. (Naw-Ford wouldn't make any mistakes like that

)

Besides (as I mentioned before) there isn't a whole lot of difference in the specs of 20 wt. oils and Mobil 1. Normally one full grade difference will not cause any noticable difference in wear and performance in any normal lubrication application under design conditions. And 20 wts seem to be in the upper part of the band and Mobil is at the lower end.

 

[Whimsey]

Al, say it ain't so! Ford use cheap materials and some dubious designs, naw

! I think that is the real reason for the "timing chain failures" that JohnBrowning is speaking of. Though I must say that in the 3 years I been a member and puruser of several Ford Truck sites I've never seen one complaint that involves timing chain problems on the Modular engines. Piston slap, leaky headgaskets and shooting sparkplugs seem to be the largest regular complaints with these engines. And trust me those people are not shy and will complain or ask about ANY problems they experience with their trucks. I understand that the timing chain tensioners rely on a fast and good flow of oil to keep the chains properly tensioned. Too viscous of an oil at start up will cause noise and possible damage due to chain flop. Also if the oil is not maintained and the oil passages become clogged then the tensioners will not maintain the proper tension. As Al said there doesn't seem to be that much difference between the 20 weight and many 30 weight oils to specifically say that 20 weight, not 30 weight causes timing chain problems.

Whimsey

 

[quadrun1]

I'm not so sure that "lack of oil volume" as mentioned here necessarily equates to "use of higher viscosity oil".

I think that engine failure due to "lack of oil volume" is more due to things like clogged oil pickup screens, blocked oil galleys, etc.

It could also mean being a quart or two low in the sump...

I've seen Civics being filled with 20W-50 dino oil in hot climates--it doesn't cause any engines to seize, but they sure run like crap on this viscosity (no power)

I think they still run thick oils in 4 cyl engines in southeast Asia...

 

[buster]

I think Al hit the nail on the head.

 

[Smoky14]

I was in Yuma last month and rented a new Ford product which I assume had the 20wt oil in it as it had 1K miles on it. It was 115 out side and after a 100 mile trip I could hear every rod and piston going around. If I owned one, doubtful, I would run something thicker than the factory fill.
It sounded like it was on it's last legs.

 

[mikemc]

The one Ford motor that has had a lot of problems with the timing chain is the 4.0L SOHC found in '97+ Explorers and 2001+ Rangers. This motor has always had a 5w30 recommendation, so much for the 5w20 theory in this case.

 

[JohnBrowning]

I have to say that baring cold start dureing winter temps. I have never seen a viscosity issue cause any damage either way in a running engine. I have noticed that lighter weight oils both dino and PAO tend to produce more solids/deposits in the engine. Controling depostis in the engine has always been my primary concern for longterm engine health. IF we can keep the ring pack, pickup screen, oil pasages, and emmision systyem clear of deposits the cars engine lasts forever. I have always been concerned with high speed boil off. THe film thickness has always been my secondary concern.

I was thinking that since car engines do not use O-Ring chains on the timeing system viscosity and adhesion is important. THe thiner weigt of the 5W20 might not leave enough oil film on the chain once it leaves the oil pan area. Most imports have some really long chain lengths. They might need to add 0-ring to design to hold some oil.

 

[YZF150]

I am wateing to see how these vechiles are doing after 150,000-200,000 miles of 5W20. I am going to find this really interesting!

Is this code language for, "Gee, I sure hope that I'm right about my prejudice against lighter weight oils?"

John, your preferences are well known. Must you continue to spin every issue that has potential to slander 5w oils to suit what you believe rather than what you don't yet know?

 

[buster]

quote:

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I am wateing to see how these vechiles are doing after 150,000-200,000 miles of 5W20. I am going to find this really interesting!

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I have 130k miles on my car with a diet of Trisythetic, Amsoil and SS and the car is like new. 80% of the cars life had the thin, little wimpy Mobil 1 everyone thinks is so inadequate for the job.

 

[Ken2]

quote:

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Originally posted by Smoky14:
I was in Yuma last month and rented a new Ford product which I assume had the 20wt oil in it as it had 1K miles on it. It was 115 out side and after a 100 mile trip I could hear every rod and piston going around. If I owned one, doubtful, I would run something thicker than the factory fill.
It sounded like it was on it's last legs.

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Every 20°F increase in oil temperature is about equal to a decrease of one viscosity grade-- increase the oil temperature 20° and a 40 wt flows like a cooler 30 wt. (about 30°F increase makes a 30wt look like a 20wt, though).


Ken

 

[Jimbo]

I have never personally seen an auto/light truck engine fail at the crankshaft. Journal bearings simply do not fail in normal (not racing) service as long as there is some oil in there. The valve train is where the oil is really challenged. Pitted and clogged lifters, scored and even flattened cams is where I have seen "oil related" failures. Water-thin, low ZDDP oils do just fine in the bearings, but what about these modern hydraulic lifter OHC setups? Cam chains have already been mentioned as a potential trouble spot.

 

[Smoky14]

YZF: I concluded that the engine had a ton of mechanical racket when running under the conditions I encountered. Yes I assumed it had factory fill oil as no rental outfit changes oil in new cars. I think I concluded I would try something thicker ie 10W30. I didn't take the time to look up your Lat& Long but I don't think it's Yuma.

 

[Al]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ken2:

Every 20°F increase in oil temperature is about equal to a decrease of one viscosity grade-- increase the oil temperature 20° and a 40 wt flows like a cooler 30 wt. (about 30°F increase makes a 30wt look like a 20wt, though).
Ken

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Based on an article in SAE. It gave information to indicate that oil temps in the oil pan can get as high as 280F in the [qb]oilpan[/b]

Could some speculate how many cSt a 20, 30, 40, 50 wt. oil would be at this temp ?? C'mon guys-you can do it

I'd like to know.

Where do you think I am going with this

 

[JohnBrowning]

YZF150 short of attacking my every post do you have anything worth saying to me? Obviously we all have bias's that is a prereq. for an opion!

My opion is based on the test of time. We simply have more years of engineering saying that hydrodynamic protection is important then not to throw it out the window.

For almost the entire history of the internal combustion engine we have been told to select the thickest oil apropreiate for temp. Now we are supposed to select one weight either 5W20 if it is a Honda or Ford or 5W30 if it is GM or Toyota.... I do not think so. What happend to the previous 100+++ years of research? Why is this not carried over to all markets? Toyota and Honday Japan do not recomend a single weight of oil. They actualy prefer 40wt's and 50wt's but customer is expected to select what is right based on temp.!Korean car markers also prefer you to run thicker oils but give you choices. You also see heavy oils still being used and recomended buy BMW and Mercedes, Ferrai 10W60 15W40,15W50.......


Seeing how thier is more then 100+++ years of consumers selecting the right weight of oil based on ambient temps and maybe 12 years of only use 5W30 and 2 years of 5W20 maybe I have a point!

Where is the long term data showing that 5W20 will protect for long term. Their is not any it is being generated right now! Guess who is generateing the data? The owners of these vechiles!

So if I have a bias it would be for selecting the right oil based on ambient temps! I am against the unbridled recomendation that thin oil is best for everything. It is silly to think that one weight of oil is going to be best for all applications. The consumer is the best person to choose the right oil for his vechile.

We have seen that when people select what is best for their ambient temps thing go well. Look at the Saturn owner that recently posted his good numbers with 15W40.

I guess Eiron just imagined he read about timeing chain issues with 5W20? I guess Terry is wrong for generaly recomending that someone start with a 30wt oil and establish a baseline before moveing in either direction as well? I guess Pablo is crazy to be putting 20W50 in his Volvo?

I could car less if you dislike my opion! If you want to question it that is fine. You do not have any right to attack me though for haveing an opion that you do not like!

I started my aprenticeship in 1988 and have been ASE certifed Master Tech. since the end of 1990. I am still in the industry today. I also have two college degrees. I look at engines and powertrains as a matter of routine. I think I have earned the right to have an opion on what works and what has not worked in the past. I am open to new ideas and products but will not make a recomendation to anyone on a product that has not been well tested. It is not ethical to recomend a product that has not stood the test of time. At this point 5W20 is a Fad!

I would never hope for anyone to develop any type of problem with their vechiles. I would rather be proved wrong on this issue. I think that it is unfortunate that people who know very little about an engine feel forced into useing 5W20 to "Maintain their Warrantee's". I would like nothing better to be proven wrong and for all of these engines to make it to 300,000 mile with very little oil consumption and no oil burning at 200,000 miles.

I am very much interested though in seeing which way the data is going to fall.

So YZF150 have you looked through the UOA site at all the M1 5W30 and 10W30 results yet? If so what did you find? Their are a lot of UOA to look at!

 

[DavoNF]

John,

That makes sense to me.

 

[Smoky14]

John: AMEN I've been a mechanic for over 40yrs. Started as an aircraft mech, went to cars, then motorcycles. I spent my last 5years building engines. I've torn engines down which ran Penz that looked like they never changed oil, I don't bad mouth Penz because I don't know the history. I've seen scooter engines which ran 10W30 with the bearings well beaten, I suspect oil too thin, but I didn't run the motor so I don't know; I do however have a strong hunch.
Then again sometimes ya just know what ya know.

 

[YZF150]

John, see Private Message.