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Re: Microgreen - possibly stunning development! [Re: CharlieBauer] #4633602
01/13/18 01:33 PM
01/13/18 01:33 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,392
toronto
PeterPolyol Offline
PeterPolyol  Offline
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,392
toronto
Thanks for clarifying MGs service interval. At over $10? a piece, value proposition remains illusive


"Nobody else has responded to you. Nobody has defended your position. Perhaps that's a clue"
Re: Microgreen - possibly stunning development! [Re: PeterPolyol] #4633608
01/13/18 01:39 PM
01/13/18 01:39 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,837
Ca.
UncleDave Offline
UncleDave  Offline
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,837
Ca.
Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
Thanks for clarifying MGs service interval. At over $10? a piece, value proposition remains illusive



Their sales model was such that they would go on sale in groups of 3 for about 7-8 bones at regular intervals.

The sump cost change exceeds the filter price at each interval - so taken at face value there is a value proposition in there.

- if you believe them.

Thev have moved away from a direct sales model to Amazon and only a few retail outlets - and will offer a discount code on multiples

Not being able to pick them up at a store is annoying to me.

UD

Last edited by UncleDave; 01/13/18 01:47 PM.

Uncle Dave
Cat 3126/2 MB3500/Titan/RX400H/17 Ridgeline
700HP V10/ 725HP BBC/ Raptor 700/ KFX450/ YZ250/Onan 8K/ Cat3011C
Re: Microgreen - possibly stunning development! [Re: CharlieBauer] #4633627
01/13/18 01:55 PM
01/13/18 01:55 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,392
toronto
PeterPolyol Offline
PeterPolyol  Offline
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,392
toronto
Well then lucky for me as I'm no more interested in MG than I am in buying weight loss solutions from the Shopping Channel wink


"Nobody else has responded to you. Nobody has defended your position. Perhaps that's a clue"
Re: Microgreen - possibly stunning development! [Re: PeterPolyol] #4633680
01/13/18 02:47 PM
01/13/18 02:47 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,837
Ca.
UncleDave Offline
UncleDave  Offline
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,837
Ca.
Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
Well then lucky for me as I'm no more interested in MG than I am in buying weight loss solutions from the Shopping Channel wink


I understand that position, and would understand if you didnt keep posting in this or other like posts.

Im quite impressed with the potential of PTFE as a filter membrane medium - but only when implemented and used properly.

I'm also impressed with and use the cummins version of this design using stacked cardboard disks. (no 4548-12)

As to wether either non 4548-12 tester filter works as claimed - I will let my own data and 3rd party lab data be my guide.

We have no third party UOA data that refutes its actual claim - including my most recent sample, that said we don't have a lot of data points but Im on a sharp lookout for one so by all means if you have 3rd party data on it - please post it up.


Between what is "said" - vs. what what I test observe and measure through a non biased 3rd party labs - others opinions, while always interesting, seldom enlightening, matter little to me.



UD


Uncle Dave
Cat 3126/2 MB3500/Titan/RX400H/17 Ridgeline
700HP V10/ 725HP BBC/ Raptor 700/ KFX450/ YZ250/Onan 8K/ Cat3011C
Re: Microgreen - possibly stunning development! [Re: CharlieBauer] #4633683
01/13/18 02:52 PM
01/13/18 02:52 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,438
Atlanta
DuckRyder Offline
DuckRyder  Offline
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,438
Atlanta
I’m going to dispense with he quotes in hopes of improving readability.

Thank you for the compliment on the C&P, I do try though clearly some of my pictures turn out better than others. I’ve been known to tell them at work if I was a professional photographer they would have to pay me more. Nonetheless I’ll keep it up as long as people find value in it.

RE: a contrarian position to the lab. I’m not sure I’m completely contrary to their position, (more on that in a minute), but whether it be a curse or a blessing (probably a curse) and my field of work - experience has conditioned me to not take data at face value.

BTW - None this is directed at anyone here specifically, and yes I’m being intentionally obscure about what exactly I do, though it doesn’t have anything to do with oil or filters.

When someone hands me data, I ask a lot of questions before I start trying to figure the data out. These questions are things like: “Who collected the data”, “Why did they collect the data”, “how did they collect the data”, “do we have any other data”, "If we have other data is it relevant”, “if there are conclusions are they valid”, "What is the population and sample size of the data”.

This kind of thinking comes from getting things like reports where the executive summary says stuff like “x improved 8% over the same period last year” but looking at the data and seeing that “x” is still a horrid result. I’mean isn’t “x” is at 38% something that should go in the executive summary? But I digress...

I also find that sometimes people reach conclusions, and while the conclusions may ultimately prove correct frequently several steps in the process are skipped.

So, if you ask me if I agree with Werner Von Braun my answer is “maybe” or “it depends”. Generally though I would say one UOA viewed in a vacuum is worthless, mainly because the sample size is too small, the population too large and the variables too great. Unit averages and Universal averages are an attempt to address this. If actions have been taken or pure circumstance have reduced these factors, then a smaller sample size may have increased value.

But see we recently learned from the Harley Street Rod UOA that not all results are added to the universal averages. So we have filtered data without full knowledge of the filter applied, do we not?

So, now that I’ve gone off on that little tyrade/tangent lets try a practical application:

RE: Blackstones positon on insolubles:

https://www.blackstone-labs.com/what-is-oil-analysis.php

Says in part:
Quote:
This test tells you how good a job the oil filter is doing, and to what extent the oil has oxidized.


https://www.blackstone-labs.com/what-are-insolubles.php

Says in part:
Quote:
Excessive insolubles can form in an engine oil if the oil: is running hot, is receiving more than a normal amount of contamination, is suffering more (or more severe) heat cycles than is normal, is being run longer than a typical use cycle, or, on the other side of the coin, if oil filtration is marginal or relatively ineffective.


and if you click on the gas/diesel explanation on: https://www.blackstone-labs.com/report-explanation.php and hover over “insolubles” it says
Quote:
Solids formed by oil oxidation and blow-by past the rings.


So, some of those pesky questions are “Who wrote that”, “Why did they write it”.

So assuming anyone is still with me, I hope this might help explain why I don’t agree with:

Quote:
An insoluble number is also a good indicator of filter effectiveness.


But might agree something like:

Quote:
Oil filtration is a factor to look at related to a high insolubles reading.


Or put another way. A low insolubles number could just mean that the engine isn’t really producing any insolubles (and thus has nothing to do with the filter).


Robert
  • 2007 Toyota Prius Touring
  • 2005 Honda Civic Sedan
  • 1972 Ford F100
Re: Microgreen - possibly stunning development! [Re: CharlieBauer] #4633707
01/13/18 03:20 PM
01/13/18 03:20 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 953
Rio Rancho, NM
Pajero Offline
Pajero  Offline
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 953
Rio Rancho, NM
I watched this youtube.com Microgreen propaganda video. It shows a Rio Rancho Police vehicle, (City where I live). I know the fleet manager. I can assure you that Microgreen was never used on a fleet vehicle belonging to the Rio Rancho Police Dept. Furthermore; it's a violation of city policy to photograph city vehicles and publish them without permission.

It must be a stock photo from internet.

The City of Rio Rancho uses NAPA parts and brands for everything. They still change oil at 3,000 miles (severe service) for all fleet vehicles.

*On a side note. Per opinions of all four mechanics: The Rio Rancho P.D. uses Dodge Chargers since Ford quit making Crown Victoria. The Chargers are better made for emergency response vs Ford. The Chevrolet Impalas were the worst, literally falling apart in pursuit driving.



Respectfully,

Pajero!



Always remember "Planned obsolescence."

1994 Montero SR 3.5 DOHC, 133,xxx
Fram Ultra/ Snorkel with Pre-filter
K-9-Co-pilot
Re: Microgreen - possibly stunning development! [Re: DuckRyder] #4633734
01/13/18 03:51 PM
01/13/18 03:51 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,837
Ca.
UncleDave Offline
UncleDave  Offline
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,837
Ca.
Same on ditching quotes-

Originally Posted By: DuckRyder


Or put another way. A low insolubles number could just mean that the engine isn’t really producing any insolubles (and thus has nothing to do with the filter).


I well understand sample sizes and actually run them a a lot as well as research 3rd party example from which you can learn a lot about a given platforms record.

I agree that a low output producing engine could alter insolubles.

One of benefit of blackstone over polaris basic test is that they give you free historicals your platform and you get a lot of value knowing what the averages should be and when a combo for whatever reason performs significantly better than average -

you never have less that eat least 2 data point an usually more built up against the average they give you.

If they are tainting the data I get it - if they take the high and low out then maybe not so bad- I don't know.

I totally agree one of anything is not enough - except to run the combo again and see if the results match and continue to do so.

I get your throught train and think you and I are closer aligned in most things that the mail chain makes it appear.

UD


Last edited by UncleDave; 01/13/18 04:01 PM.

Uncle Dave
Cat 3126/2 MB3500/Titan/RX400H/17 Ridgeline
700HP V10/ 725HP BBC/ Raptor 700/ KFX450/ YZ250/Onan 8K/ Cat3011C
Re: Microgreen - possibly stunning development! [Re: UncleDave] #4633747
01/13/18 04:01 PM
01/13/18 04:01 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,392
toronto
PeterPolyol Offline
PeterPolyol  Offline
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,392
toronto
Originally Posted By: UncleDave

Between what is "said" - vs. what what I test observe and measure through a non biased 3rd party labs - others opinions, while always interesting, seldom enlightening, matter little to me.



UD


Well I wish you good luck with your 'scientific hard-facts and lab-data driven' venture, apparently. I understand you are invested in a statistical conclusion proving MG filters practical value, and shall not trouble you further with opposing opinion.


"Nobody else has responded to you. Nobody has defended your position. Perhaps that's a clue"
Re: Microgreen - possibly stunning development! [Re: CharlieBauer] #4633766
01/13/18 04:23 PM
01/13/18 04:23 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,837
Ca.
UncleDave Offline
UncleDave  Offline
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,837
Ca.

Im out to make no alliance with any particular brand - just protect my expensive commercial and personal equipment.



UD


Uncle Dave
Cat 3126/2 MB3500/Titan/RX400H/17 Ridgeline
700HP V10/ 725HP BBC/ Raptor 700/ KFX450/ YZ250/Onan 8K/ Cat3011C
Re: Microgreen - possibly stunning development! [Re: DBMaster] #4633781
01/13/18 04:42 PM
01/13/18 04:42 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 534
San Antonio, TX
das_peikko Offline
das_peikko  Offline
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 534
San Antonio, TX
Originally Posted By: DBMaster
It has no wire mesh. I also don't know what the media is. It is green - that's all I can tell you. 8-{D>


Thank You. I appreciate the answer. smile

Re: Microgreen - possibly stunning development! [Re: UncleDave] #4633795
01/13/18 04:57 PM
01/13/18 04:57 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 18,941
PNW
ZeeOSix Offline
ZeeOSix  Offline
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 18,941
PNW
Originally Posted By: UncleDave
I will let my own data and 3rd party lab data be my guide.


Maybe I've missed it, but UD do have data of all your UOAs for comparison that show an improvement when just the Microgreen filter was put into the mix without changing other parameters (ie, vehicle, oil, OCI/FCI, driving conditions, etc)?

Re: Microgreen - possibly stunning development! [Re: CharlieBauer] #4633836
01/13/18 05:44 PM
01/13/18 05:44 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,077
Tennessee
goodtimes Offline
goodtimes  Offline
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,077
Tennessee
It's all hucksterism. Make your own all filter. Use those socks with holes in them for something, don't keep wearing them because nobody sees. laugh

Re: Microgreen - possibly stunning development! [Re: ZeeOSix] #4633851
01/13/18 06:07 PM
01/13/18 06:07 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,837
Ca.
UncleDave Offline
UncleDave  Offline
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,837
Ca.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: UncleDave
I will let my own data and 3rd party lab data be my guide.


Maybe I've missed it, but UD do have data of all your UOAs for comparison that show an improvement when just the Microgreen filter was put into the mix without changing other parameters (ie, vehicle, oil, OCI/FCI, driving conditions, etc)?



You only missed one so for because there isnt much to see on this particular experiment at this stage

Im not running UOA's on vehicles Im running them on commercial equipment.

Im running UOA's on gensets to get the condemnation points for change which have been fixed 150 hour based on Dino oil for some 4700 hours.

I run all kinds of filters(kubota, cummins FU, MG) on it but only bothered to UOA the microgreen which is posted here on page 2.
Ill have another sample up soon at 200 hours (about 2-3 more weeks at current use)

I have a closet full of ultras as well, and may end up with a FU and a magnet. Im just going to see what the data says.

I have to decide if Im going to switch to run some other filter or I keep seeing how far I can go wit the microgreen , but per their use case Im pretty tapped out at 169 house as that equates to about 10K of driving and I don't trust the media or disk past that - but out to that point first tested results are excellent.


UD


Last edited by UncleDave; 01/13/18 06:16 PM.

Uncle Dave
Cat 3126/2 MB3500/Titan/RX400H/17 Ridgeline
700HP V10/ 725HP BBC/ Raptor 700/ KFX450/ YZ250/Onan 8K/ Cat3011C
Re: Microgreen - possibly stunning development! [Re: CharlieBauer] #4644195
01/23/18 05:29 PM
01/23/18 05:29 PM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 83
Vermont
Toptierpao Offline
Toptierpao  Offline
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 83
Vermont
Once fleets realized that the filters were no longer doing the job promised,the majority of fleet customers has now,all but dwindled to nothing. A few days ago,I returned 10 Microscam filters directly to SOMS which they received today.Below is some email correspondence.I also mentioned that if they can provide data to Iso 4548-12 on current filters that came close to pre-2013 claims,I and others will be back in a heart beat.



Their reply on 1/23/17>>>"We received the filters today. You will receive a check in the mail by January 30th".

Regards,

Customer Care


SOMS Technologies











Last edited by Toptierpao; 01/23/18 05:34 PM.
Re: Microgreen - possibly stunning development! [Re: Toptierpao] #4644421
01/23/18 09:16 PM
01/23/18 09:16 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,837
Ca.
UncleDave Offline
UncleDave  Offline
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,837
Ca.
Originally Posted By: Toptierpao
Once fleets realized that the filters were no longer doing the job promised,the majority of fleet customers has now,all but dwindled to nothing. A few days ago,I returned 10 Microscam filters directly to SOMS which they received today.Below is some email correspondence.I also mentioned that if they can provide data to Iso 4548-12 on current filters that came close to pre-2013 claims,I and others will be back in a heart beat.



Their reply on 1/23/17>>>"We received the filters today. You will receive a check in the mail by January 30th".

Regards,

Customer Care


SOMS Technologies












Can you cite your information source for the claim of losing their fleet customers? Im curious where you got that information.

As of recent (probably a week ago) Fram no longer publishes a 4548-12 for the ultra.

You do realize the 4548-12 spec opts out the microgreen and all other dual stage units as of its latest rewrite?

UD


Uncle Dave
Cat 3126/2 MB3500/Titan/RX400H/17 Ridgeline
700HP V10/ 725HP BBC/ Raptor 700/ KFX450/ YZ250/Onan 8K/ Cat3011C
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