LSPI engine damage

[Virtus_Probi]

Originally Posted By: bigj_16
VP, what is the oil recommendation on the Subies in the recall? Two things on the Hyundai site. They were pointing possibly to high silicon. I have never seen mentioned in studies. They are also saying PAO's are more resistant to LSPI, whereas the one study I saw said the likliness of an LSPI event actually increase as oil group increases, numerically, with the exception of Group V.


I noticed that same thing about group IV/V in the Infineum paper, but that paper seems to be strangely inconclusive about actual LSPI events. It acknowledges that there is proof that calcium is an LSPI promoter, but then says that it made no difference in autoignition for the gaseous phase testing that was being performed. The summary of findings at the end suggests that testing of the effects of solid deposits might need to be done to understand the well known calcium connection.
Given that other studies in real engines have shown that higher group oils generally perform somewhat better than lower group ones, I tend to wonder how useful these IQT tests really are.

http://www.infineuminsight.com/insight/jun-2017/lspi-and-lubricant-auto-ignition

Is there any retail oil out there that is know to be largely ester based? Are Redline oils supposed to be 100% ester base stocks?

 

[Virtus_Probi]

Originally Posted By: bigj_16
What is the standard recommended oil for the Subies? 5W-30?. Any special specs?


For the 2.0l turbo, just a synthetic 5W30 API SM/SN or GF4/5 is recommended in the manual.
"Subaru" oil is supposedly made by Idemitsu and good luck finding any hard info about it...I doubt that many US dealers use it for their changes.

 

[HerrStig]

Originally Posted By: Solarent
I just saw a video from Lubrizol on the topic. In it, they say that one of the way that OEM's have been combating LSPI up to this point is by programming the engine to pump excess fuel into the cylinder, which has a cooling effect to prevent the issue. This may be one of the reasons why we haven't heard that the problem is widespread.

I do have the 3.5L V6 Ecoboost. Apart from it being horrific on fuel economy I haven't had any damage. Maybe it's been tuned to use extra fuel - between that and deposits on the intake valves, I would guess that's the reason for the fuel economy issues.
And they call it "Ecoboost"?

 

[bigj_16]

Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
What is the standard recommended oil for the Subies? 5W-30?. Any special specs?


For the 2.0l turbo, just a synthetic 5W30 API SM/SN or GF4/5 is recommended in the manual.
"Subaru" oil is supposedly made by Idemitsu and good luck finding any hard info about it...I doubt that many US dealers use it for their changes.
That's pretty broad on specs. Interesting.

From what I have seen so far in studies, and this is very preliminary, maybe pre-preliminary

The ideal oil for LSPI prevention would be:
* as high a viscosity as you can get away with,very end of the range for the grade
* as high in zinc as you can get away with, so probably in the 1200 range, so you won't kill emissions stuff
* low in calcium, probably to be subbed with magnesium
* Group V based, with a little Group III thrown in for mixture sake(no IV's)
* A good shot of Moly, maybe 150-ish

Anyone know where I can get some?

 

[Virtus_Probi]

Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Originally Posted By: Solarent
I just saw a video from Lubrizol on the topic. In it, they say that one of the way that OEM's have been combating LSPI up to this point is by programming the engine to pump excess fuel into the cylinder, which has a cooling effect to prevent the issue. This may be one of the reasons why we haven't heard that the problem is widespread.

I do have the 3.5L V6 Ecoboost. Apart from it being horrific on fuel economy I haven't had any damage. Maybe it's been tuned to use extra fuel - between that and deposits on the intake valves, I would guess that's the reason for the fuel economy issues.
And they call it "Ecoboost"?


I think that's one reason OEMs are pushing for oil standards with LSPI tests...they lose some of the fuel economy benefits they thought they would get with DITs by having to run rich to avoid LSPI. Once they can tell drivers they have to use dexos1 Gen 2, GF6, SN+, or whatever, they can tune the engines for better fuel economy.
I didn't really notice whether my mileage changed much after it was recalled and reprogrammed for LSPI, but I tend to scoot around like a maniac, anyway. I guess I haven't had any 400+ mile or 30+ mpg tanks since then, had a few earlier on. Talking about incremental mpg gains in a car that is supposed to run premium at 60 or so cents a gallon more than regular seems kind of daft, anyway.

 

[bigj_16]

"Talking about incremental mpg gains in a car that is supposed to run premium at 60 or so cents a gallon more than regular seems kind of daft, anyway." Yeah, that's why I never understood the SMART car in the U.S. I understand it is a city car, but in the U.S. that's kinda moot. The SMART car gets so-so mileage for its size, and you have to use premium.

 

[OneEyeJack]

So, is it true that GDI is just there to cool the combustion chamber to meet smog requirements and all this other stuff are the consequences suffered because of adding CAFE requirements into the mix?

 

[Virtus_Probi]

Originally Posted By: bigj_16
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
What is the standard recommended oil for the Subies? 5W-30?. Any special specs?


For the 2.0l turbo, just a synthetic 5W30 API SM/SN or GF4/5 is recommended in the manual.
"Subaru" oil is supposedly made by Idemitsu and good luck finding any hard info about it...I doubt that many US dealers use it for their changes.
That's pretty broad on specs. Interesting.

From what I have seen so far in studies, and this is very preliminary, maybe pre-preliminary

The ideal oil for LSPI prevention would be:
* as high a viscosity as you can get away with,very end of the range for the grade
* as high in zinc as you can get away with, so probably in the 1200 range, so you won't kill emissions stuff
* low in calcium, probably to be subbed with magnesium
* Group V based, with a little Group III thrown in for mixture sake(no IV's)
* A good shot of Moly, maybe 150-ish

Anyone know where I can get some?

I had been running M1 5W30 ESP, which was thick for its grade and low in calcium. I think somebody on here said it was all group III, though...ZDDP was low as it was a low SAPS oil (0.6%), but I'd give it a splash of ZDDP additive except for the first time I used it. I believe I threw a little bit of LM MoS2 in at least some of the time, can't remember exactly when I used that stuff and when I didn't (never very much).

I don't know if Amsoil SS might fit your bill? They claim to be taking LSPI very seriously, not sure what their base stocks are really like...I'm pretty sure that Redline uses a big load of calcium, maybe it works out OK with their esters and high ZDDP.
Not a simple issue at all!!! Should have bought that V6 RDX... ;^)

 

[Virtus_Probi]

Originally Posted By: bigj_16
"Talking about incremental mpg gains in a car that is supposed to run premium at 60 or so cents a gallon more than regular seems kind of daft, anyway." Yeah, that's why I never understood the SMART car in the U.S. I understand it is a city car, but in the U.S. that's kinda moot. The SMART car gets so-so mileage for its size, and you have to use premium.


Those things were EXPENSIVE, too!
Guess hipster cred usually isn't cheap... ;^)

 

[bigj_16]

Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
What is the standard recommended oil for the Subies? 5W-30?. Any special specs?


For the 2.0l turbo, just a synthetic 5W30 API SM/SN or GF4/5 is recommended in the manual.
"Subaru" oil is supposedly made by Idemitsu and good luck finding any hard info about it...I doubt that many US dealers use it for their changes.
That's pretty broad on specs. Interesting.

From what I have seen so far in studies, and this is very preliminary, maybe pre-preliminary

The ideal oil for LSPI prevention would be:
* as high a viscosity as you can get away with,very end of the range for the grade
* as high in zinc as you can get away with, so probably in the 1200 range, so you won't kill emissions stuff
* low in calcium, probably to be subbed with magnesium
* Group V based, with a little Group III thrown in for mixture sake(no IV's)
* A good shot of Moly, maybe 150-ish

Anyone know where I can get some?

I had been running M1 5W30 ESP, which was thick for its grade and low in calcium. I think somebody on here said it was all group III, though...ZDDP was low as it was a low SAPS oil (0.6%), but I'd give it a splash of ZDDP additive except for the first time I used it. I believe I threw a little bit of LM MoS2 in at least some of the time, can't remember exactly when I used that stuff and when I didn't (never very much).

I don't know if Amsoil SS might fit your bill? They claim to be taking LSPI very seriously, not sure what their base stocks are really like...I'm pretty sure that Redline uses a big load of calcium, maybe it works out OK with their esters and high ZDDP.
Not a simple issue at all!!! Should have bought that V6 RDX... ;^)
I am running 5W-30 M1 EP in one truck, and 5W-30 M1 Regular in the other. I am going to do UOA's here pretty soon, and put M1 0W-30 AFE in both and see how it does. ESP is hard to get and expensive for M1.

 

[Virtus_Probi]

Originally Posted By: bigj_16
I am running 5W-30 M1 EP in one truck, and 5W-30 M1 Regular in the other. I am going to do UOA's here pretty soon, and put M1 0W-30 AFE in both and see how it does. ESP is hard to get and expensive for M1.


Yeah, ESP is big bucks and seems to only be available in liters for the US.

Not sure if this would affect your decision, but AFE is one M1 line that is not showing dexos1 Gen 2 licenses on the XOM website...EP and AP, as well as the standard line, show Gen 2 licenses for 0/5W20 and 5W30. 0W30s may not be eligible for dexos1 as I don't see any of those on the "master list", but there are a lot of 0W20s on there.

 

[cb_13]

I just saw a video from Lubrizol on the topic. In it, they say that one of the way that OEM's have been combating LSPI up to this point is by programming the engine to pump excess fuel into the cylinder, which has a cooling effect to prevent the issue. This may be one of the reasons why we haven't heard that the problem is widespread.

I do have the 3.5L V6 Ecoboost. Apart from it being horrific on fuel economy I haven't had any damage. Maybe it's been tuned to use extra fuel - between that and deposits on the intake valves, I would guess that's the reason for the fuel economy issues. [/quote

What do you consider horrible? My '12 F150 gets 18 mpg all around driving. Not great but it's a full size 4x4 truck. It's better than the 15 my 04 F150 or 13 my 99 Silverado got.

 

[PimTac]

I really wonder if the automakers know what causes LSPI. The Japanese point their fingers at the calcium in oil, others look at heat, mentions of increased moly etc. Then again why would oil even fit into the discussion? Most likely it's a combination of things. Lighter pistons, combustion chamber design etc. As already mentioned, Mazda seems to be on top of things with their SkyActiv engines.

My theory is just plain old lugging the engine. The knock sensors do their job but maybe it's on a micro scale. I've driven newer cars where I know I am lugging just due to the situation. Slowing down for traffic then accelerating again but the transmission stays in a higher gear. No knocks but everything else matches the feeling of lugging. The idea of getting into a high gear quickly and staying there helps fuel economy but at what expense?

Btw, the Subaru forums are full of LSPI incidents. Perhaps not as many recently but the 2013-14-15 period was very bad. I remember one poster who said he just pulled off the freeway and was slowing on the off ramp when his engine grenaded. It's not the type of situation one would expect engines to blow in that manner.

 

[SR5]

Quote:
My theory is just plain old lugging the engine

I'm with you Pim Tac, keep the revs up and stop lugging the engine. These auto boxes need to be a bit more reactive to driving speeds, and not race to the highest gear possible and hold it there as long as possible.

My Opel has a "sport" button for the auto trans. It will hold the gear longer to let the revs climb before changing up a gear. It will also change down sooner if your speed drops too much or you give it more than just gentle accelerator. If you are going down hill with no gas and touch the brakes, it will drop a gear and hold it there until you hit the gas again.

It's auto sport mode feels like my normal mode with a manual trans, so I used it that way every day, same with my wife. We both dislike driving with the auto in "normal" mode.

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted By: SR5
Quote:
My theory is just plain old lugging the engine

I'm with you Pim Tac, keep the revs up and stop lugging the engine. These auto boxes need to be a bit more reactive to driving speeds, and not race to the highest gear possible and hold it there as long as possible.

My Opel has a "sport" button for the auto trans. It will hold the gear longer to let the revs climb before changing up a gear. It will also change down sooner if your speed drops too much or you give it more than just gentle accelerator. If you are going down hill with no gas and touch the brakes, it will drop a gear and hold it there until you hit the gas again.

It's auto sport mode feels like my normal mode with a manual trans, so I used it that way every day, same with my wife. We both dislike driving with the auto in "normal" mode.




Your comment switched on the led lightbulb in my head. Supposedly the Mazda SkyActiv transmissions will upshift and downshift throughout the throttle range. That means you will be always in the gear you want. Not all makes do this. On the rental cars I've driven the past several years none of them displayed that behavior. I had to nudge them to downshift much like I had to do with older automatics. Some automatics are more responsive so the throttle nudging was minimal. Some I had to literally floor the throttle to wake them up. On a Chevy Sonic I rented, I could actually floor the gas pedal and count to two before the thing would take off. This was a new vehicle at that time btw.

CVTs don't downshift in the same sense but the lag is still there. Even the instruction tell the driver to depress the throttle to the floor for passing etc. In my experience that means doing exactly that, then as the engine wakes up and screams bloody heck, I then back off the gas a bit as I don't need 5000rpm to go down a freeway ramp.

So the transmissions are contributing to engine lugging by not responding quick enough. CVTs exaggerate the issue.

 

[bbhero]

One thing to be mindful of PimTac is the motor that is paired with the CVT. My VQ 3.5 does a rather good job of not lagging far behind in response to throttle input. It will roll quite well in fact. It also does not have to go to 5k rpm to get down a highway ramp. It will do quite well going at 3-3500 rpm. Though I regularly hit 5k rpm on those ramps just exercise the ponies a bit

I do agree a CVT transmission paired with a 2.0 or heaven forbid a 1.8L motor has to be terrible at lagging quite a bit.

 

[wemay]

Originally Posted By: SR5
Quote:
My theory is just plain old lugging the engine

I'm with you Pim Tac, keep the revs up and stop lugging the engine. These auto boxes need to be a bit more reactive to driving speeds, and not race to the highest gear possible and hold it there as long as possible.

My Opel has a "sport" button for the auto trans. It will hold the gear longer to let the revs climb before changing up a gear. It will also change down sooner if your speed drops too much or you give it more than just gentle accelerator. If you are going down hill with no gas and touch the brakes, it will drop a gear and hold it there until you hit the gas again.

It's auto sport mode feels like my normal mode with a manual trans, so I used it that way every day, same with my wife. We both dislike driving with the auto in "normal" mode.


Funny you mentioned this. My Sonata has three settings, Normal, Eco and Sport. I also drive almost exclusively in Sport for the same reasons, transmission holds the revs higher and longer. But as Pim Tac notes, i wasn't even thinking of this as way to combat deposits (no LSPI in this normally aspirated engine), but it probably helps.

 

[bbhero]

Very good point by PimTac there as you stated Wemay. Makes a lot of sense as a possibility to help with that issue.

 

[B320i]

Maybe there are not reported issues of engine damage now, but I wonder if life expectancy of these engines will be reduced?
As I've repeatedly turned myself purple in the face saying - I'm noticing a helluva lot of late-model, near new cars clattering away on seemingly innocuous, flat roads. I don't even want to know about hills, that is just murder.

An engine that pings very predictably under light driving circumstances surely won't last as long as something that doesn't. OE's need to step up their game and stop claiming these engines can run on regular-grade fuels. Its more than obvious, based on what I'm seeing, that regular grade fuels aren't making life any easier for DI engines.

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted By: bbhero
Very good point by PimTac there as you stated Wemay. Makes a lot of sense as a possibility to help with that issue.



Thanks bbhero. My thinking comes from when I first started out driving eons ago. The one thing my dad stressed into my head was to never lug the engine. This was with a manual transmission so those of us who started out on manuals and perhaps a bit older as well learned this from the beginning. In those days lugging was obvious not only to the driver but the passengers and bystanders around the vehicle. The knocking and pinging could be heard a half a block away. Today it's not so obvious. Those old engines were able to take some abuse as well since everything was iron and thick steel. Yet, there were examples of pistons with holes burned through at mechanics shops and auto parts stores as a reminder to shift down. After driving for a while you know just right before when the engine will lug such as going up a hill and to downshift before it got to that point. There were no tachometers in most cars then so we learned by sound just as a sporty or a track driver will know when to shift today. A lot of people have driven only automatics so this experience was not gained .