China's an Economic Monster

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China has a seemingly insatiable need for commodities and raw materials. They are importing wood from us to manufacture furniture and shipping back the finished product at a price lower than we can make it.

There is a bonanza in scrap metal being shipped to China.

They need a lot of energy, food and other resources.

This could be a great opportunity for the U.S., or it could be disaster.
 
We need to slap some C02 monitoring on them.....

The worst thing every time I go back to China? The friggin traffic....the build the roads LAST and I use the term build loosely....
 
We need to sign some trade agreements with them that put us on a more level playing field. People always say we should take them to court over their currency manipulation, but in reality, all they are doing is buying up our trade defecit and our seemlessly never ending fiscal defecits to keep the dollar higher than where it should be as a result of the trade defecit. One very fundamental way of putting us back on a level playing field in currency markets is to balance our budget and start retiring all the outstanding treasury debt.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Pablo:
We need to slap some C02 monitoring on them.....

snip....


Why bother, I think the way the treaty is written, they have the right to polute all they want. Fortuantly the senate had the good sense not to ratify it. Wonder how Kerry voted?
 
They didn't steal it, it was given to them by us. Why do you think most of every manufactured item has "made in china" stamp on it?
 
Heh...yeah right, the US has never stolen technology. Heck, NASA is pretty much built on German rocket scientists, the A-Bomb was built as a result of nuclear scientists from all over the world. China has pretty much co-opted the US modus operandi. Lure technology with money and market access.
 
BTW the US, Canada and Australia are the biggest per capita pollutors in the world. Canada is somewhat understandable since it's bloody cold and heating is a big source of emissions. I wonder why the US and esp. Australia are so bad??
 
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China still runs coal-fired steam locomotives since they have lots of coal, lots of people to dig it out, and no oil. Speaking of, about all I see looking out my office window is mile after mile of trains with COSCO (China Overseas Shipping COmpany) containers all day, every day. I do think every nation should have to adhere to the same pollution and worker protection standards. If not, then we don't buy from them. Call me a right-wing protectionist.
 
quote:

Originally posted by mnztr:
Heh...yeah right, the US has never stolen technology. Heck, NASA is pretty much built on German rocket scientists, the A-Bomb was built as a result of nuclear scientists from all over the world. China has pretty much co-opted the US modus operandi. Lure technology with money and market access.

The German scientists were more than willing to come to the U.S. And so were the folks who helped build the "BOMB"
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We didn't "steal" anything.
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quote:

Originally posted by mnztr:
BTW the US, Canada and Australia are the biggest per capita pollutors in the world. Canada is somewhat understandable since it's bloody cold and heating is a big source of emissions. I wonder why the US and esp. Australia are so bad??

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I think we also generate most of the world's wealth and production too. I live in a place where at one time there was a steel mill in every town. Now that stuff is all closed up because of imports (granted, that's only one reason), costing us about 200,000 good paying jobs. Air and water are nice and clean now but there's few decent paying jobs. Middle class is dying off, everyone is either a doctor, lawyer, or works at Wal-Mart.
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I can't believe how much of the finance industry is outsourcing. Many accounting functions are moving to India, in addition to corporate financial anylisis. Just the two fileds I'm getting into
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Someone mentioned the health industry; a lot of that is moving offshore as well, like radiology. Imagine that; you fall and break your arm, and they send your x-ray over the net to India to have a radiologist examine it, then he sends his findings back over the net to your doctor.
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The bigest irony of outsourcing I've heard of is the administrational wrok for many states unemployment departments is done overseas now
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quote:

Originally posted by mnztr:
BTW the US, Canada and Australia are the biggest per capita pollutors in the world. Canada is somewhat understandable since it's bloody cold and heating is a big source of emissions. I wonder why the US and esp. Australia are so bad??

mnztr,
not to try to overly justify Oz's greenhouse performance.

We've got a relatively small population, spread over a fairly extensive area. There is no public transport to speak of outside of the metropolitan areas, so we have to travel by car for just about everything. Families tend to be spread across the country for work, further exaccerbating this. So our personal CO2 emmissions are pretty high.

The Government has gone to great lengths to move freight on road rather than rail. If it's on rail, they have to pay track maintenance. If it's on the road, they pick up fuel excises, on about 10 times more fuel than if it was rail.

Power Generation.....we are stuck with very old power stations, the best of which are knocking on 40% efficient, and the majority of which are low 30s. We allow the burning of brown coal for power generation. With the depressed electricity market (currently operating on the California system), there is no incentive to build new efficient plant. The only plant being built is simple cycle GT peaking plant at 27% efficiency.

Then, a LOT of this inefficiently generated electricity is used to make aluminium, which is then exported.

An interesting take on aluminium was that the Government mounted a position that the recieving country should be credited with the emissions of their consumption of aluminium, steel and the like. The Europeans weren't too happy with that, so we get to keep the emissions, but they get to use the aluminium.

We've also got a large meat industry (in comparison to our population sze), the greenhouse emissions of these also stay with us, while the rest of the world eats the meat.

We could still be doing a lot better, and people are starting to wake up a bit on what they as individuals are doing.
 
The sleeping giant is waking-up (and they appear to be following a well planned program). My dear old dad use to tell me about "the sleeping giant" when I was a young man, 30 years ago...
 
quote:

Originally posted by Rick in PA:
The sleeping giant is waking-up (and they appear to be following a well planned program). My dear old dad use to tell me about "the sleeping giant" when I was a young man, 30 years ago...

China is going to implode. The inherent
contradictions in the system such as communist
party dictating a free market economy are
political, social plutonium. The higher China
rises the greater will be its fall.

cheers.gif


jae
 
By 2050, the most prosperous countries will be the ones whose goverment allows the people to make money with the least hassle.
 
quote:

Originally posted by GROUCHO MARX:
China has a seemingly insatiable need for commodities and raw materials. They are importing wood from us to manufacture furniture and shipping back the finished product at a price lower than we can make it.

There is a bonanza in scrap metal being shipped to China.

They need a lot of energy, food and other resources.

This could be a great opportunity for the U.S., or it could be disaster.


Well, China's population is about 1/4 that of planet Earth....~1.2 BILLION. What else can one expect?
I just hope all those Chinese don't buy Ford Excursions.....or you can forget about "peak oil" being in 2020.
freak2.gif
 
quote:

Originally posted by J:

quote:

Originally posted by Rick in PA:
The sleeping giant is waking-up (and they appear to be following a well planned program). My dear old dad use to tell me about "the sleeping giant" when I was a young man, 30 years ago...

China is going to implode. The inherent
contradictions in the system such as communist
party dictating a free market economy are
political, social plutonium. The higher China
rises the greater will be its fall.

cheers.gif


jae


If what you are suggesting is that their Socialist system will cease to exist.....then I agree. I don't know how long this change will take.....but it will.

EDIT: IF.....IF China could keep the current economic pace WITHOUT internal friction, then they will have been the most succesful country to adopt the Socialist/Communist system without implosion. The Soviet Union, as mighty as it was could no longer support itself.....much less its puppet countries (Hungary, Bulgary, Romania, Cuba among others) due to the fact they absolutely had no economy whatsoever. Their only export was war materiel and related items, so once there were no more wars, it had no where to go but down. China, on the other hand, has adapted beautifully by keeping rigid control and dominance on politics and the country overall, BUT establishing a somewhat capitalist economy....something the USSR and Cuba, among others never did. How long will it last? Will people want more than just a couple of bucks in their pockets....Freedom (were you referring to this J?) Elections? I don't know. Time will tell!

[ February 24, 2004, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: Last_Z ]
 
Let's not kid ourselves. China is ONLY succeeding because they are "allowing" capitalism and have been since the early 1980's. I say that because portions of China NEVER actually were Communist. I know, I know....but many, many Chinese people, Chinese generations have been buying, selling, trading for 1000's of years, it is ingrained in them - 50 years of Communism could not kill this trait even with it's people killing, life controlling tortures.

I have spent a LOT of time in China. The biggest news...for most Americans...I gotta say: I think it's actually easier currently to start and run a business in China than in the USA. Think about that for a minute.

Please find and read a book called "Red Dust", this is really a fun easy read about a guy from Beijing that goes walkabout in China right when the economic reforms started taking effect in the 1980's. The library will have this book. Then read a book called "The Making of Madame Mao", which I just started...it's basically a strangely written book by Anchee Min. She writes the book in 1st, 2nd and 3rd person...and it works. Mao's to be wife is on her 3rd husband....what a chick, what a life...but it gives an interesting view of the Communist party.

Again, I have dealings in China. I love that country. It is alive in so many ways....in ways the US, Europe, Canada, and Australia are dead. China for such an old country, now has a youthful energy....yeah OK I love the girls, the food, the tea....land ownership is now ok!

I mentioned traffic and smog killing China. Yes. But also - the real scary thing is that some hardliners take back the country and try to stamp out the prostitution, the free enterprise, the books, the videos,.....it could get ugly fast....and would have some interesting manufacturing location shifts...
 
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