Upper cylinder lubricants

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dragboat: "I have posted before that modern engines do not suffer from valve recession."

I had the head off my Honda Civic last fall (head gasket leak) after 100,000 miles and the machine shop said the engine had significant valve recession ... but they might have just been angling for $400+ in valve work.
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Stu, I agree that prolonged use of 2-cycle oil might cause problems ... but I'm only doing it intermittently. ~2 ounces in a 11 gallon tank ... and only 1 in 3 tankfuls. In the other 2 tankfuls I run either Neutra or Red Line SI-1 ... or isopropyl alcohol in the winter.

'Kule: "The light oil that is used as carriers for fuel additives does nothing to lubricate the valve seats, since this oil is combusted into gasses."

Hmmm ... are ya sure about that?
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If you think of a 4 stroke engine, the intake valve is open when the air/fuel mixture enters the combustion chamber. At this time, it coats the underside of the valve (stem, etc ...) and then the valve closes. At this time, any thin film of oil is doing its job and keeping the valve seat from wearing as the air/fuel is lit off ... even without any metallic additives.

But no, the exhaust valves won't get any help from an ashless formula.
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--- Bror Jace
 
The motor oil will lubricate the valve stem and the valve guide for sure but anything that goes in with the fuel is going to become decomposed by the heat of combustion and vaporized.

Valve seat recession can only be slowed by special valve seat alloys and metallic additives in the fuel stream.

Now, you will also receive some metallic deposits from vaporization of the motor oil additives. However, most of the metals from oil vaporization are zinc, magnesium, and calcium, which completely decompose at low vaporization temps.

In other words, what you need is a special high temperature metal such as manganese that had been dissolved into solution in a carrier and added to the fuel.

[ February 19, 2003, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
 
"Why is an upper cylinder lubricant needed? Doesn't the engine oil get into that area?"

That's the implication and question I have been asking.

If the motor oil film or vapor gets past the valve stems seals and guides, (and some does), this should be all the lubrication the UCL needs. I mean, what IS the upper cylinder and what in the upper cylinder really needs lubricating: the valve stems and seals?

My personal view is that UCL (as is colloquially defined) is a need created by an additive company and now people really think they need it.

My view is that a true UCL is one in which a high temperature metallic deposit is left on the valve angles and seat, and is not a liquid. Secondly, why would anyone want a lot of oil going into a combustion chamber? That may be good for a 2-cycle, but not for a 4-cycle engine.

[ August 07, 2003, 05:21 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
 
molakule.......Have you ever experienced any plug fouling while using an octane booster? I experienced some plug fouling on an old engine while running 110 race fuel (heavy red deposits on plugs). Wouldn't high test fuel give you the same benefit as the octane booster you are using?
 
No, I have never experienced fouling of plugs using an octane booster.

I think that overuse of or heavy concentrations of octane booster could possibly attack soft metals in the engine and elevate soft metal wear.
 
Regarding the Lucas product, could it possibly cause a high reading of lead in an oil analysis? The 2 analysis I've gotten on a Nissan VQ30 engine (~75,000 miles and very well maintained) show elevated lead levels. The lab asked about using leaded fuel or lead additives (wouldn't that be an UCL, like Lucas?). I run 93 octane, and used the Lucas during each run of oil I had analyzed (I'm not using it this time just to see for myself). The highest lead level was 61! The engine runs very well with no problems or odd noises. I'm just looking for a reason for high lead levels other than bearings! Any input is appreciated.

Dave
 
I fouled my plugs once when I used a bottle of Techron fuel system cleaner. Some other Audi guys thought I had used octane booster...
I've never before had that problem, and I think it was caused by the combination of the Bosch Plus 4 platinum plugs, the fuel additive, and that particular engine. After that incident I went back to using the OEM non-platinum NGK tri-electrode plugs.

-
 
In so far in my experiance and by posts Lucas UCL seems to be a legit product and an easy on your engine cleaner.

What would be nice is VOA of a bottle of Lucas UCL to answer the earlier posts lead question. After all as with cleaners such as Auto-RX elevated Pb levels are expected as those worn and deposited metals are "liberated" from the engine.

Furthermore, perhaps a couple road tests and then UOA would be in order to compare wear values.

It is my opinion that Lucas UCL can be safely used at every fill up unlike unlike Techron, BG44K, Redline S1 etc.

Food for thought-
 
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I stumbled across some top lube that you have not even mentioned. Can't understand why.
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-

Top Oil live chemistry includes oxygen, and high molecular weight btu. After lubricating, formulae release both energy and oxygen during combustion, then clean up in the exhaust process.
DOES NOT CONTAIN OIL OF THE CASTOR BEAN

I like the part about "natural formulae, transported from the far corners of the orient and tropical regions." lol

Les
 
Dave H., Alot of VQ engines throw high lead numbers. Seeing how lead is not used in fuel in USA any more it has to be from the bearings. It is almost impossable to find lead in consumer goods. No one wants to open them selfs up to lead poisioning litiagation. THe few products that have any signifacant amount of lead tend to be labled as such!!. IF you have lead issues on the VQ30 engine I would look at oil and driveinghabits.
 
Based on what has been said in this discussion:

1) Do UCL additives really work as advertised? If they get consumed before they can lubricate the upper cylinder, then I suppose that Neutra and Fuel Power would be effective as fuel system cleaners and injector cleaners, and to lubricate fuel injector parts, but not effective in lubricating the upper cylinder.

2) Octane improvers that contain MMT apparently can prevent valve recession and lubricate the upper cylinder.

3) So should you use an octane improver with a product such as Neutra, Lucas Fuel System Cleaner, Fuel Power, or Chevron Techron? How much octane improver do you use-the entire bottle?
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mystic:
Based on what has been said in this discussion:

1) Do UCL additives really work as advertised? If they get consumed before they can lubricate the upper cylinder, then I suppose that Neutra and Fuel Power would be effective as fuel system cleaners and injector cleaners, and to lubricate fuel injector parts, but not effective in lubricating the upper cylinder.

2) Octane improvers that contain MMT apparently can prevent valve recession and lubricate the upper cylinder.

3) So should you use an octane improver with a product such as Neutra, Lucas Fuel System Cleaner, Fuel Power, or Chevron Techron? How much octane improver do you use-the entire bottle?
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Topic: Fuel System Cleaners Read MolaKule's posts
 
I have been using Lucas UCL for about a year now and have noticed a definite 5% mpg increase. I figure that's justification to use it, because it should more than pay for itself. Also, assuming it does little to lube the upper cyl., it will still lube your injectors and fuel pump. Lucas is advertised to keep injectors clean with regular use.
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Stuart Huges, I do not think that you need to worry about the sensors. Lucas and 131 do not harm them at all. Even MMO is safe for O2 sensors. Remember we are talking about really low treat rates. I only have to add 6 ozs of Lucas to my tank when I fill up.

I have never had a pluged up injector or had to back flush an injector! I have only had one engine my entire life that ever had a carbon issue and that was a 18 year old carbarated car I bought off a relative for $350 dollars. We have seen papers from GM and BMW telling us that we can not rely on the additives in the fuel to keep cylinders and injectors clean!
 
Probably very few. TC-W3 has gained momentum only as more people have read up on it enough to decide to give it a try themselves, and then seen the positive benefits (if they either hit the right ratio the first time, or stuck it out to experiment long enough to find it) to continue using it.

Where its not stocked where you'd find things to put in your gas tank, and many find it too counter-intuitive to add 2 cycle oil to gas to try it, people are not as easily interested in trying this compared to something like Redline, Regane, or even MMO (which has its own skeptics as well, though not as many).

The irony is that TC-W3 is the cheapest to use and the easiest to find. There is no scientific proof it "works," but when you really look at it analytically, it does add up that it'll do exactly what a decent UCL should: lubricate the upper cylinder and the fuel pump. I use it in every tank of gas and combine it with MMO for the extra cleaning power MMO has. Yet for the lubrication side, I still give the edge to TC-W3; but to prevent any buildup and keep things clean I add in the MMO as well.

-Spyder
 
Thanks Spyder for your informative posts on TC-W3. I wonder if there have been any UOA's posted yet on the forum with the use of TC-W3 during an OCI. It would be interesting to see if there is any "fuel dilution" or any added "blow by" with the use of the Maine two stroke oil. If there is any....it might show up in the flash point of the UOA. Thanks for your posts.
 
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