questions, Non "energy conserving" oil in cars

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Aug 25, 2011
Messages
437
Location
Michigan
So I am wondering what the difference in running a oil without the energy conserving labels in a car the usually uses energy conserving oils is.

Is it only that? energy conserving additives that allows less friction? would using oil without these additives cause more wear? or only lower fuel mileage?

I know motorcycles can't use energy conserving oils because the friction modifiers are too slippery for the wet clutches, but what If i was to run a motorcycle oil in a car?

also Rotella T6 appears to not have these energy conserving friction modifiers, so could gasoline engines that use t6 also use motorcycle oil? could motorcycles use t6?

it appears that the only difference i can find from t6 and motorcycle oil is that motorcycle oil has more ZDDP.

so many guys with gasoline engines are looking for a higher ZDDP oil for their hot rods and things like that and sometimes use t6 and oils like that, why can't they use motorcycle oils instead, like mobil 1 4T?
 
Originally Posted By: MrRPM

I know motorcycles can't use energy conserving oils because the friction modifiers are too slippery for the wet clutches




I believe thie to be 100% false. I've ran "Car" oils such as Pennzoil and Castrol as well as The 15w40 diesel oils and never had any clutch issues.

Right now I have Delo 400LE in my bike and last time I checked this oil had quite a bit of Moly in it.

Clutch works fine.
 
Originally Posted By: Chris142
I believe thie to be 100% false. I've ran "Car" oils such as Pennzoil and Castrol as well as The 15w40 diesel oils and never had any clutch issues.

But a 15w-40 is not an energy conserving oil.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Chris142
I believe thie to be 100% false. I've ran "Car" oils such as Pennzoil and Castrol as well as The 15w40 diesel oils and never had any clutch issues.

But a 15w-40 is not an energy conserving oil.

Before that I posted that I have ran many car oils. I broke in a rebuilt quad engine on 5w30. No problems.

I used to add Torco MPZ in the same quad and that stuff is loaded with Moly and the clutch never did anything weird.
 
ok, thats not what I was asking, i dont care about the motorcycle debate.

could i run motorcycle oil in a car? Thats what im basically asking


but In MY(!) experience ATVs with wet clutches should not use motor oil intended for cars because I MYSELF have ruined a few clutches doing this.
 
CAFE is the reason for the classification, "Energy or Resource Conserving Oil", in the world of motor oils. I ran some Dino Diesel from late spring to late summer and did not notice a big difference in MPG. But I also add a mix of TC-W3 to my gasoline at every fill up. So, maybe that helped out with my MPG during the summer.
 
Quote:
would using oil without these additives cause more wear? or only lower fuel mileage?



Energy conserving lubricants usually have a friction modifier (called a monooleate) to increase fuel mileage but also reduces wear by a small amount.
 
since alot of people switch to diesel oils for their high performance gasoline engines such as t6 for its higher ZDDP contents (which is also monooleate free) why not use a Motorcycle oil which can have 400-600 PPM more ZDDP?
 
My guess would be that the motorcycle oil might contain less detergents, or have a low TBN, or some other missing feature, and be less suited to long OCIs.
 
Last edited:
so it could possibly be like a few racing oils that are popular, like VR1 racing conventional. hmmmm interesting.
 
one time i went 420 miles on one tank with maxlife(none energy conserving).... i never gotten higher than 395 with any synthetics(pennzoil, valvoline)

this is a horrible way to gauge mpg, but it is what it is.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: MrRPM
So I am wondering what the difference in running a oil without the energy conserving labels in a car the usually uses energy conserving oils is.

Is it only that? energy conserving additives that allows less friction? would using oil without these additives cause more wear? or only lower fuel mileage?


It's energy conserving because the thin oil is easier for the oil pump to pump, but if anything at all, it's gonna
cause more wear than a non energy conserving oil. Engine oil needs to have some thickness for it to lubricate.
 
I use the M1 0W-40 in my Marauder but then if I was worried about gas mileage, I wouldn't own a supercharged V8...
 
I happen to be running motorcycle oil in my Ferrari F355 in order to break in my newly rebuild engine (1600 ppm zinc). The direct cam to tappet to valve actuation, high RPMs (8,700), and alumisil coated cylinder liners need a healthy dose of ZDDP for proper breakin. The mechanic use MC oil because of the unavailability of GM EOS (which we found a substitute for afterwards).

I will return to a more conventional 5W-40 oil after breakin, one that has at least 1100 ppm of zinc.

There are engines that don't have fully rollerized valve trainsstill running around these days.
 
They (4T oils) may be GREAT, but I still say that you are giving up other beneficial AW/FM additives (soluble moly/antimony/boron??) not in the 4T stuff due to the wet clutch use (vs. the same brand oil in 'automobile'/non-wet clutch spec, i.e.; Motul 300V Chrono/Power Racing/etc., vs. the various 300V 4Ts.)
wink.gif
 
Here is the definition of Energy(Now Resource) Conserving Oils from the API:

Quote:
2.3.2.5.2 Resource Conserving in Conjunction with API Service Category SN
API Service SN engine oils designated as Resource Conserving are formulated to help improve fuel economy and protect vehicle emission system components in passenger cars, sport utility vehicles, vans, and light-duty trucks powered by gasoline engines. These oils have demonstrated a fuel economy improvement (FEI) in the Sequence VID test at the percentages listed in Table 1 when compared with a baseline oil (BL) used in the Sequence VID test. Additionally, these oils have demonstrated in the tests listed in Table 1 that they provide greater emission system and turbocharger protection and help protect engines when operating on ethanol-containing fuels up to E85.
Many previous S-categories made reference to “Energy Conserving,” but this reflected an emphasis on fuel-economy performance alone. Resource Conserving in conjunction with API SN focuses on fuel economy, emission system and turbocharger protection, and compatibility with ethanol-containing fuel up to E85.


Basically what that means is based on your grade of oil there must be a Fuel Economy Improvement over whatever the Baseline Oil was; the oil must retain 79% of its phosphorus level (typically derived from ZDDP); retain no water; and not produce more than 30mg of high temperature deposits. Any oil that does not meet these requirements can no longer be considered a "RESOURCE CONSERVING OIL". The replacement of ZDDP with other additives has more to do with the reduction in PPM of phosphorus required by emission system standards.

What does that mean from a additive package standpoint? Typically 10-14% of an additive package is ZDDP; it is reduced to 5% if they are using a low SAPS standard. If you are removing ZDDP that means both wear protection and anti-oxidant levels are effected because that is what ZDDP does.

Oil companies are now using things like molybdenum disulfide and borated sulfonates and other FM/EP/AW additives(notice the presence of sulfur in both of these) to pick up the slack from ZDDP and they do a pretty good job most of the time. Where we run into more trouble is in oil oxidization. So oil companies are figuring out other ways to deal with that too. Phosphorus retention is also a concern and so using additional additives to help the phosphorus from depleting is also becoming a common practice.

In general older oils which do not meet these new standards (and generally have higher levels of ZDDP) are still fine for MOST new engines - however there are many exceptions especially in performance vehicles. Motorcycle oils which have very high ZDDP will work however you may run into problems depending on what vehicle, gas/diesel, what kind of emission system you are running etc etc etc.

So yes you can use high ZDDP oils in gasoline engines like motorcycle oils or certain race oils and so called "performance" oils that all have higher levels of ZDDP. On the flip side the newer FM react differently with metal surfaces including clutch plates than ZDDP does, which is why sometimes you can have issues with wet clutches. Motorcycle oil additive packages also use different levels of dispersants, rust/corrosion inhibitors, and other additive ingredients than engine oils designed for gasoline engines. (That said I know several motorcycle drag racers that use various additive package supplements that include all kinds of friction modifiers with great success).

on a personal note, I think it is funny that ZDDP has become synonymous with things like better wear protection in oil the same way MOLY has done so with grease. There are lots of other options in the industry, these ones are used most generally because they are the most "cost effective" (AKA they make oil companies more money)
 
Originally Posted By: Solarent


Oil companies are now using things like molybdenum disulfide and borated sulfonates and other FM/EP/AW additives(notice the presence of sulfur in both of these) to pick up the slack from ZDDP and they do a pretty good job most of the time.

According to some email correspondence that a member here had with Idemitsu, they're also cutting back on using moly to meet GF-5 requirements.

-Dennis
 
yep that's right - I used those as examples because they are common ones that people would recognize. GF-5 puts a lot of limits on compounds that used to be quite common and as formulators continue to come up with new ways to meet the specs without the use of phosphate and sulfur compounds we will see big changes in additive package technology.

there is talk of trying to make oils that only contain carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen with no additional chemical compounds as additives. Personally I don't see how it's going to work but that's the miracle of science - what we thought was the best ever is always changing...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top