What causes TBN depletion?

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Since TBN is total base number, or a measure of an oil's ability to neutralize acids (alkalinity), what is it that causes the TBN to drop with use?

Mileage? Extreme temperature? Time? Heat cycles? Bad gas? Engine design? Basestocks? Additive blends?
 
Acid buildup from combustion byproducts, breakdown of certain components in the oil, etc.
 
Water is created as part of the combustion process. This water can then be broken apart and combined with other combustion byproducts to form acids.
 
So are frequent short trips going to cause fast acid build-up? Is high TBN needed for those situations?
 
Combustion is more efficient when the engine is at temperature so I believe you will have more acid produced in a colder engine.
 
Originally Posted By: dparm
So are frequent short trips going to cause fast acid build-up? Is high TBN needed for those situations?
No. More frequent oil changes. TBN Adds compete with anti wear Adds. I wouldnt want a high TBN with low EP adds.
 
Frequent, short trips can allow water/acid to build up much more quickly in the crankcase, depending on engine PCV design and condition of the engine (compression loss/blowby). If you mainly just go a couple miles down the road to the store and then come back and repeat this enough times, you will need to change the oil MUCH sooner than if your trips are 10-15 miles or longer even. This issue is even worse in cold weather. The oil cannot get hot enough for long enough to burn off the continual addition of H2O from combustion gas that gets past the rings. The longer the water component stays in the oil, the more the TBN is depleted as acids that have formed are neutralized by the detergent additives and dispersants.

A retired Mobil rep told me years ago when I was an oil neophyte that he would always tell folks, in any talks he gave during his career, that the shorter your daily trips are, then the more often you need to change the oil, regardless of mileage. Synthetics can help with this some, but still need changed much sooner as well when short-tripped often. Another option for some folks might be to use an HDEO which generally starts out with higher TBN and will help the oil to last longer in this type of severe service as well.
 
So a car that's not driven on the freeway often would not do well with a low-TBN oil? Seems like most of the good synthetics have TBNs of 9-11, but there are some that are like 5-8.

I change the oil every 5k anyways since the car is tracked so I'm thinking I could get away with a lower TBN, no? (last OCI showed I used about 6.0 of the TBN).
 
Originally Posted By: dparm
So a car that's not driven on the freeway often would not do well with a low-TBN oil? Seems like most of the good synthetics have TBNs of 9-11, but there are some that are like 5-8.

I change the oil every 5k anyways since the car is tracked so I'm thinking I could get away with a lower TBN, no? (last OCI showed I used about 6.0 of the TBN).


Every oil out there will be fine at any sane OCI. Sure you can get away with a lower TBN oil, but keep in mind that higher TBN oils are not harmful. IMO, TBN can be safely ignored nowadays unless you are running extended oil drains (12K+). Valvoline conventional has been a lower TBN oil, and it runs great for 10K miles.
 
Good to know, thanks. There's a lot of misinformation about there that high TBN = high OCI, when in reality it's not that simple. That's why I was trying to clarify.
 
Starting TBN doesnt mean a whole lot. Retained TBN is what matters.

Yes, you could use a oil with lower retained TBN than your current oil assuming you have one in mind that is superior in some way (From lower cost to increased EP pack) to your current oil.
 
Originally Posted By: dparm
So a car that's not driven on the freeway often would not do well with a low-TBN oil? Seems like most of the good synthetics have TBNs of 9-11, but there are some that are like 5-8.

I change the oil every 5k anyways since the car is tracked so I'm thinking I could get away with a lower TBN, no? (last OCI showed I used about 6.0 of the TBN).


The rate of TBN depletion also varies with an oil's chemistry.

Ideally speaking, since TBN add's compete with AW add's, in theory you don't need or want the virgin TBN level to be any higher than necessary for a chosen OCI.

I've mixed RL race oil (TBN 2) and RL's street oil (TBN 8) without concern since the resulting TBN is still higher than I need; again because the OCI is short.
 
How do basestocks come into play? Do higher levels or certain combinations of ester/PAO matter? (i.e. would an ester-heavy oil with low TBN not suffer from rapid depletion)
 
Originally Posted By: bmwtechguy
Frequent, short trips can allow water/acid to build up much more quickly in the crankcase, depending on engine PCV design and condition of the engine (compression loss/blowby). If you mainly just go a couple miles down the road to the store and then come back and repeat this enough times, you will need to change the oil MUCH sooner than if your trips are 10-15 miles or longer even. This issue is even worse in cold weather. The oil cannot get hot enough for long enough to burn off the continual addition of H2O from combustion gas that gets past the rings. The longer the water component stays in the oil, the more the TBN is depleted as acids that have formed are neutralized by the detergent additives and dispersants.

A retired Mobil rep told me years ago when I was an oil neophyte that he would always tell folks, in any talks he gave during his career, that the shorter your daily trips are, then the more often you need to change the oil, regardless of mileage. Synthetics can help with this some, but still need changed much sooner as well when short-tripped often. Another option for some folks might be to use an HDEO which generally starts out with higher TBN and will help the oil to last longer in this type of severe service as well.


I live in Minnesota and in the winter, I have conditions just as you are talking about : short trips, frequent starting and stopping, very cold weather, etc. I was thinking about trying Redline 0w30 this winter. Any ideas as to how this oil would hold up vs Mobil 1 Ow30?
 
Originally Posted By: john1944
Originally Posted By: bmwtechguy
Frequent, short trips can allow water/acid to build up much more quickly in the crankcase, depending on engine PCV design and condition of the engine (compression loss/blowby). If you mainly just go a couple miles down the road to the store and then come back and repeat this enough times, you will need to change the oil MUCH sooner than if your trips are 10-15 miles or longer even. This issue is even worse in cold weather. The oil cannot get hot enough for long enough to burn off the continual addition of H2O from combustion gas that gets past the rings. The longer the water component stays in the oil, the more the TBN is depleted as acids that have formed are neutralized by the detergent additives and dispersants.

A retired Mobil rep told me years ago when I was an oil neophyte that he would always tell folks, in any talks he gave during his career, that the shorter your daily trips are, then the more often you need to change the oil, regardless of mileage. Synthetics can help with this some, but still need changed much sooner as well when short-tripped often. Another option for some folks might be to use an HDEO which generally starts out with higher TBN and will help the oil to last longer in this type of severe service as well.


I live in Minnesota and in the winter, I have conditions just as you are talking about : short trips, frequent starting and stopping, very cold weather, etc. I was thinking about trying Redline 0w30 this winter. Any ideas as to how this oil would hold up vs Mobil 1 Ow30?


I tried it last winter (Redline 0w30),and total months in use was 11-months,the oil came out looked like it was only in there a short period of time. I'll be using it again this winter.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
If you want the lightest 30wt M1 AFE 0W-30 is the way to go plus it's have the price of RL.


Ditto, RL isnt cheap!
 
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