Valvoline vs Mobil 1 - Round 2

[FrankN4]

Originally Posted By: cheetahdriver
right. the only allegation Ashland has made is for the 5w30. the "reason" this was tested was it is the "most popular" weight.

except it isn't, 10w30 is the most popular weight oil sold in the US. this makes me think that one batch of 5w30 is being used to smear the whole brand.


According to the Mobil 1 web site, 5W-30 is their number one selling oil.

 

[cheetahdriver]

perhaps, but the best selling wt of motor oil in the country is 10w30, not 5w30. amsoil says 5w30 is their best seller, too. perhaps in synthetic grades 5w30 is the best selling weight, but for the country as a whole with all oils it's 10w30.

 

[buster]

I wonder if/when Mobil does reformulate their 5w30 to meet the Seq IVA test if it would loose some of it's high temperature deposit protection? Being Mobil 1 is used in mainly high performance engines, the Seq IVA really doesn't have much to do with that type of driving and engine condition. Or does it?

 

[Valvman]

Cheetah
NPRA reports show approximately 270 million gallons of 5W-30 projected to be sold for 2008 while 10W-30 is projected to sell about 170 million gallons (US volumes).

 

[otrdriver725]

you are right. you don't know what is going on!

 

[Liquid_Turbo]

Originally Posted By: mva
There is a thread in the UOA section where "nicrfe1370" posted a speadsheet with 120 Subaru UOA's. I did a bit of rough sorting and found M1 seemed to have higher iron numbers. Of course this is many different engines, climates, driving styles, etc. so the data is not 100% scientific.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1293170&fpart=1

I eliminated the data with less than 20,000 miles (break-in) and OCI less than 4000 miles to get rid of short OCI's. I was left with 90 samples.

I then sorted the data by ppm iron per 1000 miles.

Amsoil, Redline and Royal Purple dominate the top performers and Mobil 1 tends to dominate the bottom end of the list with higher iron ppm per 1000 miles.

I get very similar results for chrome per 1000 miles. Lead, copper and aluminum are more of a mixed bag.

See below for the iron ppm/1000 miles sort:

Miles iron/1000 Oil Brand
13500 0.2 Amsoil S2000
12664 0.3 Amsoil S3000
5786 0.3 Amsoil
4982 0.4 Redline
4323 0.5 Amsoil S3000
6904 0.6 RP Racing 21
22000 0.6 Amsoil S2000
4871 0.6 Redline
7490 0.7 Mobil 1
7156 0.7 Amsoil
5022 0.8 Royal Purple
4983 0.8 Royal Purple
4963 0.8 Redline
7382 0.8 Amsoil
5592 0.9 Tech2000
7777 0.9 RP Racing 21
8800 0.9 Chevron Supreme
7521 0.9 RP Racing 21
5319 0.9 Pennzoil/Pennzoil Plat
5174 1.0 Amsoil ASL
4131 1.0 Redline
5012 1.0 Redline
4950 1.0 Tech2000
5800 1.0 Mobil 1
7579 1.1 Mobil 1
7504 1.1 RP Racing 21
6500 1.1 Amsoil S3000
4632 1.1 Castrol High Mileage
7230 1.1 Amsoil S3000
4407 1.1 Motorcraft
5200 1.2 Amsoil ASL
6840 1.2 Synergyn
7666 1.2 Mobil 1
6790 1.2 Pennzoil Platinum
5089 1.2 Castrol Syntec
5061 1.2 Castrol Syntec
5840 1.2 Pennzoil Platinum
4082 1.2 Castrol GTX
7100 1.3 Castrol Syntec
8332 1.3 Mobil 1, Amsoil S3K
7534 1.3 Mobil 1
5174 1.4 Amsoil S2000
8077 1.4 Amsoil AMO
6540 1.4 Synergyn
5023 1.4 Synergyn
5003 1.4 RP Racing 21
5000 1.4 Mobil 1
7000 1.4 Pennzoil
4888 1.4 Mobil 1
8843 1.5 Amsoil
10000 1.5 Royal Purple
8000 1.5 Schaeffers
5200 1.5 Amsoil ASL
7780 1.5 Mobil Delvac 1
7000 1.6 Mobil 1
4411 1.6 Motorcraft
5000 1.6 Mobil 1
4316 1.6 Mobil 1, Amsoil S3K
13500 1.6 Amsoil ATM
4906 1.6 Castrol GTX
4796 1.7 Mobil 1
4788 1.7 Castrol Syntec
5930 1.7 Castrol Syntec
7000 1.7 Mobil 1
4000 1.8 Mobil 1
6213 1.8 Mobil 1
6165 1.8 Mobil 1
6144 1.8 Castrol Syntec
6000 1.8 Amsoil ATM
7600 1.8 unknown dealer non-synth
7000 1.9 Royal Purple
5921 1.9 Castrol GTX
4284 1.9 Pennzoil blend
6362 1.9 Mobil 1/Amsoil S3K/Mobil 1 T&SUV
7845 1.9 Castrol Syntec (GC)
4046 2.0 Amsoil
6524 2.0 Motul 300V Chrono
5303 2.1 Amsoil S3000
6261 2.2 Mobil 1
9581 2.3 Amsoil S2000
4647 2.6 Mobil 1
6000 2.8 Amsoil
7566 2.9 Mobil 1
7183 2.9 Mobil 1
6470 3.1 Schaeffers
5083 3.1 Castrol Syntec (GC)
7505 3.3 Mobil 1
7433 3.4 Mobil 1
4100 4.1 Schaeffers


Very interesting!

 

[crinkles]

Originally Posted By: endeavor to persevere
I don't have any Mobil products or Valvoline for that matter in my GMC Sierra or my wife's Buick and I'll bet the sun will come up in the morning and the grass will still be green.And neither vehicle will have an engine failure is its respective lifetime. How important is this in the scheme of things. For those us not in denial its the principle of the thing.

Don


it is incredibly important that products meet the specification they are claiming - otherwise what is the point of the specification? whether its babies' milk or jet fuel it is the principal that counts.

If we built a 400 foot high rise and left out every 100th steel bar, yes it would still stand up (most likely) but would you whether a hurricane in it?

 

[crinkles]

Originally Posted By: Liquid_Turbo
Originally Posted By: mva
There is a thread in the UOA section where "nicrfe1370" posted a speadsheet with 120 Subaru UOA's. I did a bit of rough sorting and found M1 seemed to have higher iron numbers. Of course this is many different engines, climates, driving styles, etc. so the data is not 100% scientific.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1293170&fpart=1

I eliminated the data with less than 20,000 miles (break-in) and OCI less than 4000 miles to get rid of short OCI's. I was left with 90 samples.

I then sorted the data by ppm iron per 1000 miles.

Amsoil, Redline and Royal Purple dominate the top performers and Mobil 1 tends to dominate the bottom end of the list with higher iron ppm per 1000 miles.

I get very similar results for chrome per 1000 miles. Lead, copper and aluminum are more of a mixed bag.

See below for the iron ppm/1000 miles sort:

Miles iron/1000 Oil Brand
13500 0.2 Amsoil S2000
12664 0.3 Amsoil S3000
5786 0.3 Amsoil
4982 0.4 Redline
4323 0.5 Amsoil S3000
6904 0.6 RP Racing 21
22000 0.6 Amsoil S2000
4871 0.6 Redline
7490 0.7 Mobil 1
7156 0.7 Amsoil
5022 0.8 Royal Purple
4983 0.8 Royal Purple
4963 0.8 Redline
7382 0.8 Amsoil
5592 0.9 Tech2000
7777 0.9 RP Racing 21
8800 0.9 Chevron Supreme
7521 0.9 RP Racing 21
5319 0.9 Pennzoil/Pennzoil Plat
5174 1.0 Amsoil ASL
4131 1.0 Redline
5012 1.0 Redline
4950 1.0 Tech2000
5800 1.0 Mobil 1
7579 1.1 Mobil 1
7504 1.1 RP Racing 21
6500 1.1 Amsoil S3000
4632 1.1 Castrol High Mileage
7230 1.1 Amsoil S3000
4407 1.1 Motorcraft
5200 1.2 Amsoil ASL
6840 1.2 Synergyn
7666 1.2 Mobil 1
6790 1.2 Pennzoil Platinum
5089 1.2 Castrol Syntec
5061 1.2 Castrol Syntec
5840 1.2 Pennzoil Platinum
4082 1.2 Castrol GTX
7100 1.3 Castrol Syntec
8332 1.3 Mobil 1, Amsoil S3K
7534 1.3 Mobil 1
5174 1.4 Amsoil S2000
8077 1.4 Amsoil AMO
6540 1.4 Synergyn
5023 1.4 Synergyn
5003 1.4 RP Racing 21
5000 1.4 Mobil 1
7000 1.4 Pennzoil
4888 1.4 Mobil 1
8843 1.5 Amsoil
10000 1.5 Royal Purple
8000 1.5 Schaeffers
5200 1.5 Amsoil ASL
7780 1.5 Mobil Delvac 1
7000 1.6 Mobil 1
4411 1.6 Motorcraft
5000 1.6 Mobil 1
4316 1.6 Mobil 1, Amsoil S3K
13500 1.6 Amsoil ATM
4906 1.6 Castrol GTX
4796 1.7 Mobil 1
4788 1.7 Castrol Syntec
5930 1.7 Castrol Syntec
7000 1.7 Mobil 1
4000 1.8 Mobil 1
6213 1.8 Mobil 1
6165 1.8 Mobil 1
6144 1.8 Castrol Syntec
6000 1.8 Amsoil ATM
7600 1.8 unknown dealer non-synth
7000 1.9 Royal Purple
5921 1.9 Castrol GTX
4284 1.9 Pennzoil blend
6362 1.9 Mobil 1/Amsoil S3K/Mobil 1 T&SUV
7845 1.9 Castrol Syntec (GC)
4046 2.0 Amsoil
6524 2.0 Motul 300V Chrono
5303 2.1 Amsoil S3000
6261 2.2 Mobil 1
9581 2.3 Amsoil S2000
4647 2.6 Mobil 1
6000 2.8 Amsoil
7566 2.9 Mobil 1
7183 2.9 Mobil 1
6470 3.1 Schaeffers
5083 3.1 Castrol Syntec (GC)
7505 3.3 Mobil 1
7433 3.4 Mobil 1
4100 4.1 Schaeffers


Very interesting!


it owuld be more meaningful if you could express as FE ppm/mile, then check back and see what the outcomes are. the OCI hasn't been nailed down in the list above.

 

[SubLGT]

Another interesting quote from Terry, circa July 2007:

..........."Many of the purported top of the line "synthetics" are terrible at resisting the aromatics attack [from fuel in oil]. No names mentioned but M1 is the worst offender in current formulation. And the main reason for their UOA wear values being higher particularly in iron readings"............"

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...true#Post951736

 

[sparkplug]

Another strike against XOM for me. I only used M1 in my Z28 for 120k miles before the engine bit the dust. I tore the motor apart and the bottom end was varnished and a little sludgy. I had replaced a valve cover gasket on my moms Stratus and the top end was varnished. I've been using dino Valvoline in it for the past 3 oil changes and the top end is clean. I'll back Valvoline for a long time.

 

[buster]

Mobil 1's best attribute is sludge and deposit control. Wear control seems to be the issue.

Synpower should be GM 4718M approved soon.

 

[mva]

Crinkles - you must have misunderstood my table. I did post Fe ppm per 1000 miles and the first number in each case is the OCI. If you want results per mile divide by 1000.

It is expressed as:

OCI, Fe ppm/1000 miles, Brand

13500 0.2 Amsoil S2000
12664 0.3 Amsoil S3000
5786 0.3 Amsoil
4982 0.4 Redline
4323 0.5 Amsoil S3000
6904 0.6 RP Racing 21
22000 0.6 Amsoil S2000
4871 0.6 Redline
7490 0.7 Mobil 1
7156 0.7 Amsoil
5022 0.8 Royal Purple
4983 0.8 Royal Purple
4963 0.8 Redline
7382 0.8 Amsoil
5592 0.9 Tech2000
7777 0.9 RP Racing 21
8800 0.9 Chevron Supreme
7521 0.9 RP Racing 21
5319 0.9 Pennzoil/Pennzoil Plat
5174 1.0 Amsoil ASL
4131 1.0 Redline
5012 1.0 Redline
4950 1.0 Tech2000
5800 1.0 Mobil 1
7579 1.1 Mobil 1
7504 1.1 RP Racing 21
6500 1.1 Amsoil S3000
4632 1.1 Castrol High Mileage
7230 1.1 Amsoil S3000
4407 1.1 Motorcraft
5200 1.2 Amsoil ASL
6840 1.2 Synergyn
7666 1.2 Mobil 1
6790 1.2 Pennzoil Platinum
5089 1.2 Castrol Syntec
5061 1.2 Castrol Syntec
5840 1.2 Pennzoil Platinum
4082 1.2 Castrol GTX
7100 1.3 Castrol Syntec
8332 1.3 Mobil 1, Amsoil S3K
7534 1.3 Mobil 1
5174 1.4 Amsoil S2000
8077 1.4 Amsoil AMO
6540 1.4 Synergyn
5023 1.4 Synergyn
5003 1.4 RP Racing 21
5000 1.4 Mobil 1
7000 1.4 Pennzoil
4888 1.4 Mobil 1
8843 1.5 Amsoil
10000 1.5 Royal Purple
8000 1.5 Schaeffers
5200 1.5 Amsoil ASL
7780 1.5 Mobil Delvac 1
7000 1.6 Mobil 1
4411 1.6 Motorcraft
5000 1.6 Mobil 1
4316 1.6 Mobil 1, Amsoil S3K
13500 1.6 Amsoil ATM
4906 1.6 Castrol GTX
4796 1.7 Mobil 1
4788 1.7 Castrol Syntec
5930 1.7 Castrol Syntec
7000 1.7 Mobil 1
4000 1.8 Mobil 1
6213 1.8 Mobil 1
6165 1.8 Mobil 1
6144 1.8 Castrol Syntec
6000 1.8 Amsoil ATM
7600 1.8 unknown dealer non-synth
7000 1.9 Royal Purple
5921 1.9 Castrol GTX
4284 1.9 Pennzoil blend
6362 1.9 Mobil 1/Amsoil S3K/Mobil 1 T&SUV
7845 1.9 Castrol Syntec (GC)
4046 2.0 Amsoil
6524 2.0 Motul 300V Chrono
5303 2.1 Amsoil S3000
6261 2.2 Mobil 1
9581 2.3 Amsoil S2000
4647 2.6 Mobil 1
6000 2.8 Amsoil
7566 2.9 Mobil 1
7183 2.9 Mobil 1
6470 3.1 Schaeffers
5083 3.1 Castrol Syntec (GC)
7505 3.3 Mobil 1
7433 3.4 Mobil 1
4100 4.1 Schaeffers

 

[buster]

Quote:
t is incredibly important that products meet the specification they are claiming - otherwise what is the point of the specification?


That's all that really matters here.

 

[SubLGT]

More from Terry, July 2007 posting: (I think this was around the same time Valvoline first challenged ExxonMobil?)

"Some motor oils have successfully reformulated to take advantage of the fuels realities here in the US. Some have not.

XOM is underdeveloping and underexecuting on their top of the line formulas and commentary to the opposite is poppycock. In a normally running engine M1 will work fine but the current formulas indeed allow too much wear by any measure. Aromatics from systemic fuel dilute is causing aggravated wear in most oil formulas but M1 is letting YOU the customer down for the money spent. You are paying for brand recognition not technology. Hopefully that will change.... they sure have the resources to do it. (text bolded by me)

................................................

This is no HIT on M1, it an observation from a independent analyst who wants the best for his customers.

Brand be darned.

Amsoil has corrected their vis thickening oxidation issues of 2 years ago.

COP syn blends are real stable but allow too much valvetrain wear in the past few years since introduction.

............................

Valvoline used to have terrible cold crank and pump values in there conventional oils that was corrected 6 years ago.

RLI formulas until recently had oxidation limiting issues until the advancement of advanced Hybridized HOBS characteristics and thus they are now rivaling about any GRP V oils. RS4 program proves that from all over the US and some foreign customers.

I share what I can and base it on testing and stay independent. "

 

[Riptide]

I know 5W-30 is the type in question here but this whole fiasco makes it difficult for me to trust the Mobil1 in general.

What would be a good alternative API certified 5W-20 to go with? I used to use the Motorcraft blend but I'm not sure I should go back to that after having used "full" synthetic already. This is for the 4.6L 3v Ford engine.

 

[cheetahdriver]

when Ashland gets GM4718M, HTO-06 and MB229.5 give me a call.

while i look closely at what terry says, he also is quite involved with RLI. of course, Molakule was quite involved with SF.

i would be interested in his (Molakule) take on this...

as far as the Motorcraft Blend, i know of no issues switching back and forth between syn and dino.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: otrdriver725
you are right. you don't know what is going on!


That's right. And neither do you. Nobody does except XOM, who seem to have sealed lips.

 

[Bryanccfshr]

Riptide, try PP and don't look back.

 

[demarpaint]

I think Terry is calling it like he sees it. I think its all about paying for Mobil 1 brand recognition and not quality at this point. Interesting to see how other brands addressed problems, no company is perfect. The key is to monitor quality and address issues. Higher wear numbers are an issue in my book, and XOM isn't doing much about it as of now.

Frank D

 

[greenaccord02]

It would be nice to have a weigh-in directly from Terry on this thread.

ALSO, it would be nice if XOM were to release an official statement. Hopefully by 1/5/09 we'll have some word.