Will this hurt the clutch?

[Astro14]

In a high-torque car with low gears, you can start in second, I start the Packard (which still has its 1932 OE clutch in it by the way) in second all the time, but I am not slipping it...and the long stroke straight-8 is a torque monster...which makes it easy. Even the owner's manual on that car (great read, by the way) says that you can start out in second, but cautions against slipping the clutch...

However, in this case, if he's using second to start, I got $20 that says he is slipping the clutch TOO much to make it smooth...and he'll fry the clutch in a month...he's a new driver and I doubt he's got this down yet.

Take a ride with him, see how long it takes for him to get his foot off the clutch from a dead stop...more than a second - he's slipping it.

If he claims he's not...well, OK, but the next clutch is on him...

 

[hate2work]

Originally Posted By: widman
Starting in 2nd will cause more wear. It will also lug the engine, causing low hydrodynamic lubrication and more need for boundary lubrication from rods pushing against bearings bearings without the proper oil film.

There is little or no clutch wear from 1st to 2nd or any other consecutive gears.


I'm inclined to believe you, but the engine does not lug at all, this thing has plenty of power/torque. Or at least it sure seems not to lug

 

[cutchemist42]

I would say to just learn the 1st gear. Its there for a reason.

 

[Vikas]

Does the car has enough torque to start in 1st gear *without* touching the gas pedal at all? If so, have him practice that first on a level ground to get the feel of the clutch.

Once he gets that, then have him get the feel of gas pedal *without* jerking the car in the 1st gear.

- Vikas

P.S. Who is paying for the insurance? You or him?? 20 yr male with Mustang GT; your insurance company must be thrilled with the coins!

 

[demarpaint]

Unless it is a truck with very low gearing, set up to tow or plow [no snow, no load] there is zero benefit in taking off in second gear. Even if the engine is not lugging it is still better taking off in first gear.

 

[mechtech2]

There is no clutch wear in a normal 1=2 shift. it is starting out that slippage occurs.

Look at it this way, why not use 3rd gear? it is also an option, right?
Wrong!

 

[hate2work]

Originally Posted By: Vikas
P.S. Who is paying for the insurance? You or him?? 20 yr male with Mustang GT; your insurance company must be thrilled with the coins!


This kid is the exception to the norm. He started driving at 15 and 1/2, got his full license and a job the day he turned 16 yo. Never had a ticket of any kind, never given us a day of trouble, etc. He drove that old Citation til last summer when I co-signed with him to get his first Mustang, the V-6 version. I've been working with him for 18 months teaching him about credit and such, so when he told me he wanted the GT version I told him if he could finance it himself and get his own insurance, I would support him. They qualified him ( by himself )with a 4.5% loan, and he found a company that would insure him for $238 a month. So he's definitely paying his own insurance.

Just talked to our mechanic, his opinion is not to start out in second gear, except maybe on rare occasions. And our boy is getting better already in just the few days he's had the car, so this will work out I'm sure. Thanks again to the poster that mentioned the ETC, that shed some light where I hadn't even been looking

 

[04SE]

Originally Posted By: hate2work
$238 a month. So he's definitely paying his own insurance.

WOW!!!!

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: hate2work
Originally Posted By: Vikas
P.S. Who is paying for the insurance? You or him?? 20 yr male with Mustang GT; your insurance company must be thrilled with the coins!


This kid is the exception to the norm. He started driving at 15 and 1/2, got his full license and a job the day he turned 16 yo. Never had a ticket of any kind, never given us a day of trouble, etc. He drove that old Citation til last summer when I co-signed with him to get his first Mustang, the V-6 version. I've been working with him for 18 months teaching him about credit and such, so when he told me he wanted the GT version I told him if he could finance it himself and get his own insurance, I would support him. They qualified him ( by himself )with a 4.5% loan, and he found a company that would insure him for $238 a month. So he's definitely paying his own insurance.

Just talked to our mechanic, his opinion is not to start out in second gear, except maybe on rare occasions. And our boy is getting better already in just the few days he's had the car, so this will work out I'm sure. Thanks again to the poster that mentioned the ETC, that shed some light where I hadn't even been looking

Sounds like he's a good kid/young man! Keep up the good work. Just thank goodness you don't live in my neck of the woods, his insurance is cheap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Vikas]

Originally Posted By: 04SE
Originally Posted By: hate2work
$238 a month. So he's definitely paying his own insurance.

WOW!!!!


Seconded :-( That is almost $3000 PER YEAR in insurance. The loan payments probably are in the $5000 PER YEAR. That is lot of income tied in wheels for a twenty year old who probably has not yet completed the college.

- Vikas

 

[meep]

a high torque car will feel just fine coming off in 2nd, but the clutch is having to slip that increased torque. it may feel just fine, but the clutch is still eating that taller gear. There will be more wear this way, period, hands down, can't argue with physics.

is it enough to matter.... depends on how robust the clutch is. I certainly wouldn't do it in a v6 ranger with a 9" clutch plate. Plenty of engine, and it'll feel just fine... but what you don't see is that small clutch doing all the work.

I could do it in my 4 banger subaru 2.2L AWD WAGON, weighed down... without revving it--- but it still doesn't mean I should. Wear=wear.

/rant off

he just needs practice. it's a fine skill, and I'm sure that going into first, there's a lot of power to control and he's just gotta learn that finesse!

M

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: hate2work
Originally Posted By: Vikas
P.S. Who is paying for the insurance? You or him?? 20 yr male with Mustang GT; your insurance company must be thrilled with the coins!


This kid is the exception to the norm. He started driving at 15 and 1/2, got his full license and a job the day he turned 16 yo. Never had a ticket of any kind, never given us a day of trouble, etc. He drove that old Citation til last summer when I co-signed with him to get his first Mustang, the V-6 version. I've been working with him for 18 months teaching him about credit and such, so when he told me he wanted the GT version I told him if he could finance it himself and get his own insurance, I would support him. They qualified him ( by himself )with a 4.5% loan, and he found a company that would insure him for $238 a month. So he's definitely paying his own insurance.

Just talked to our mechanic, his opinion is not to start out in second gear, except maybe on rare occasions. And our boy is getting better already in just the few days he's had the car, so this will work out I'm sure. Thanks again to the poster that mentioned the ETC, that shed some light where I hadn't even been looking

Good advice from your mechanic, once your son has mastered manual shifting and understands how the clutch works and what causes wear, he can start in second the odd time, say on a downhill slope.
Half the fun of a manual is hearing the motor run more varied rpms than with an auto, especially with a V8!

 

[mechtech2]

One more thing...
With 'drive by wire' throttles, clutches, and brakes, we have been forced to relinquish control of our vehicles. Often tough to drive smoothly.
Drive by wire throttle stinks!

 

[IndyIan]

I'm not a fan of DBW either. I drive my Mom's CRV once in a while and the computer always waits a bit when you hit the gas, to see if you really mean it I guess...
I haven't driven a manual trans car with DBW but even OBD2 vs. OBD1 was a downgrade...

 

[NateDN10]

Originally Posted By: mechtech2
One more thing...
With 'drive by wire' throttles, clutches, and brakes, we have been forced to relinquish control of our vehicles. Often tough to drive smoothly.
Drive by wire throttle stinks!

Especially in a manual-transmission vehicle. In my Cobalt there's a ~0.5s delay between throttle input and response.

However, my brother's MTX Mazda3 (2009) seems much more direct. It's probably partially a matter of programming.

 

[rslifkin]

Programming definitely makes a difference, but I still don't like DBW for ease of use (primary experience is a very laggy 05 Camry V6 and a less laggy 05 Lexus RX330).

 

[The_Jeff]

I think we're all spoiled by responsive idle speed control systems that keep us from stalling. I drove a non computerized datsun pickup and was shocked I had to give about half throttle starting off. Same with my 240D.

I understand the DBW is to lessen the shock on auto transmissions, but I don't see how it can't figure out a perfect A/F ratio for a stick car in longer than the blink of an eye.

 

[NateDN10]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
I think we're all spoiled by responsive idle speed control systems that keep us from stalling. I drove a non computerized datsun pickup and was shocked I had to give about half throttle starting off. Same with my 240D.

Good point.

 

[cmf]

Here is the gear ratios for the transmission in his car:

1st: 3.380:1
2nd: 2.000:1
3rd: 1.320:1
4th: 1.000:1
5th: 0.670:1
5th: 0.620:1

Source: http://www.ttcautomotive.com/English/products/TR-3650.asp

I don't see how a 3.38:1 ratio is too short for first gear. Six speed manual transmissions are around 3.8:1 to 4:1 for first gear.

He also may not be "slipping the clutch" in the way that term refers, but the clutch is definitely slipping as it engages the plate. If it didn't slip, the car would jerk forward. You are also attempting to move a stationary object with a lower gearing ratio (more difficult to move) than first gear. It would be against the laws of physics for not to cause more wear than starting in first. How much more is up for debate, probably not too much but I really cannot imagine wanting to start any car in second gear over first.

 

[rslifkin]

Seeing those ratios, I'd agree, start off in first. The only time to start in 2nd is maybe on a downhill, or in a vehicle with a granny 1st.