Will MMO+5w50 kill or clean the engine.

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Originally Posted By: Shannow

yes, if you gave me the KV40, KV100, and HTHS, I could tell you which one is more likely to be a 0W/5W40 than a 15W40. It's more an artifact of how these are built...light basestocks, and buckets of plastic.


It is more of a guessing game, agreed. It would be interesting to see what 25% MMO in 5w-50 looked like compared to straight 5w-50 in a zero degree F freezer overnight. Wax crystals in MMO could form.
 
Don't put it in the freezer, as dweebs will attack you for it.

Mine runs -19 or 20C (0 to -5F roughly), and you can't see much if anything between 0W and 5W anything. 5W20 and 5W50 slide around the same...10W is noticeably different, and SAE30 depending on brand is OK to poor..

Rislone improves the SAE30 in the freezer some.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: ToadU
I do not understand the wanting to "clean" an engine. Please don't run any MMO in an engine that runs well. You did not describe any run-ability issues in your post. You stated you just feel it's dirty and want to do flushes. I have said this many times and have much experience in all types of engines---flushes are to be avoided. If there is some carbon or sludge in the engine and you break it up all it takes is a small piece to plug an oil channel and good by engine. I have seen people doing flushes kill an engine. If the engine runs well please just change the oil and filter based on the owner's manual. Also, there isn't any automobile engine I am aware of the specs a 5w50--not even heavy duty class 8 truck engines. Use the oil specified in your owner's manual for the temperature conditions you are operating in. Using a non approved weight is just asking for problems. Trust in the engineering that went into the vehcile. This of course is JMHO but also based on facts. You will never find an owner's manual suggesting MMO or any other repair in a bottle majic additive and for good reason.


I'm pretty much in agreement here. Of note, the Track Pack version of the Mustang GT spec'd 5w-50 as did the Shelby cars.


You got me on those two. Good job.
 
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
Originally Posted By: ToadU
I do not understand the wanting to "clean" an engine.


You do not understand wanting to free sticky rings and reduce varnish?


The OP said nothing about having a ring sticking. He mentioned no run-ability problems. If he had a stuck ring he would know. He doesn't. Varnish happens in engines. Yup. It's normal. So is carbon and some sludge. It's kinda like asbestos don't go stiring sh*t up that's not causing a problem. Don't take a chance on creating a problem where none exists. You can very easily cause an engine to seize by attempting to clean it with MMO and all of the other additives people try. I have personally seen this first hand. I have seen in my service department cars people tried cleaning out which ended up having a piece of carbon or sludge that broke free plug an oil passage causing an engine failure.

Don't run 5w50. That's so bad for your engine unless you apparently have a Shelby GT or Ford track pack Mustang. No other engines for daily driving are spec'd for 5w50. Using oil that's too thick causes reduced fuel economy and excessive wear on start up and may even lead to oil starvation or excessive oil psi causing all sorts of problems or leaks.

Why do people insist on making their vehicle a test rig?

I have a decent sized fleet of vehicles at the company I own, my own full service shop and mechanics. I can tell you with certainty that no fleet anywhere from taxis to delivery to police cars to ambulances are running 5w50, using MMO, using additives in general or mixing their own brew of oil weights--or putting oil in the freezer. Commercial fleets, like mine, are maintained to the minimum spec per the owner's manual, driven by people that just don't care and are abusive, over loaded and run hard and yet commercial fleets are reliable and rack up more miles than the average person ever will put on a car. I've had gas engines in light duty service trucks and company cars easily do 300-400k miles with just bare minimum maint. I do follow the manual but there is no extras. I treat my personal cars the same and never had a problem.

Just follow the manual and use proper weights.
 
Originally Posted By: ToadU
Don't run 5w50. That's so bad for your engine unless you apparently have a Shelby GT or Ford track pack Mustang. No other engines for daily driving are spec'd for 5w50. Using oil that's too thick causes reduced fuel economy and excessive wear on start up and may even lead to oil starvation or excessive oil psi causing all sorts of problems or leaks.


Fuel economy loss a couple of percent, probably lost in the noise.

Excessive wear on start-up, I would like to see your evidence of that.

Oil starvation...with a 5W???, I would like to see your evidence of that.

Excessive oil Psi causing "all sorts of problems and leaks". Again, I would like to see your evidence of that.

Failing your provision of facts, you are scaremongering with a bunch of non facts, or repeating non facts that you've read elsewhere.
 
""Fuel economy loss a couple of percent, probably lost in the noise.

Excessive wear on start-up, I would like to see your evidence of that.""

This is per consumer reports. There are plenty of other sources. I personally like machinerylubrication.com it's an industry trade publication. Plenty of sources but I assume Consumer Reports will be good enough for you. And yes, fuel economy can be significantly impacted by using the wrong oil.

I accept your apology. I don't talk out of my a**. I can back up everything I say. Cheers.

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GREASES HYDRAULICS INDUSTRIAL LUBRICANTS SYNTHETICS FILTRATION STORAGE/HANDLING OIL ANALYSIS
Machinery Lubrication Level I and II Training
What Happens If You Use the Wrong Fluids in Your Car?


Noria news wires
Tags: automotivef
It's not uncommon for people to mix up or use the wrong fluids in their cars, and if they do, the results can vary from irritating to deadly. Consumer Reports outlines the potential damage you can do to your car, or to yourself, in a story that appears in the November issue.

"Adding antifreeze to the windshield-washer reservoir might just create a slimy mess," said David Champion, senior director of Consumer Reports' Auto Test Center in East Haddam, Conn. "But a British health study found that filling the reservoir with only water creates a good breeding ground for the bacterium that causes Legionnaires' disease.”

Consumers should check their owner's manual before they top off any fluids under the hood of their car, Champion said. People should check with a mechanic, or even the folks behind the counter at the local auto parts store, if they have any doubts.

The story appears in the November issue of Consumer Reports, which goes on sale October 5. It's also available to subscribers of www.ConsumerReports.org. Updated daily, ConsumerReports.org is the go-to site for the latest auto reviews, product news, blogs on breaking news and car buying information.

Here's what else could happen if you use the wrong fluids:

1. Motor oil slip-ups. The brand of motor oil matters little, but its viscosity grade (10W-30, for example) is important. Use only what the owner's manual specifies. Using the wrong oil can lead to reduced lubrication and shorter engine life. If the manual says to use synthetic oil, do so. Contrary to what some believe, adding synthetic oil to regular oil won't harm the engine, but there's also no benefit in doing so.

2. Battery fluid. Some car batteries have accessible individual cells that might need replenishing with a little water to cover the lead plates. Only use distilled water, which contains no salts or minerals. If tap water is added to a battery's electrolyte liquid, it can allow minerals from the water to build up on the battery's internal lead plates, which will reduce the battery's power and shorten its life.

3. Be cool with the water. A car's cooling system uses a blend of water and antifreeze; properly called coolant, at concentrations (typically 50/50) designed to keep it from freezing on a cold day and boiling on a hot one. Adding too much water to the mix can make it more susceptible to freezing and boiling. That can keep the car from starting when it's freezing and cause overheating in warmer weather. Tap water could also lead to mineral buildup in the cooling system, reducing its effectiveness.

4. Adding diesel fuel to a gasoline-powered car's tank. This will make the engine stumble and knock, if it runs at all. Fortunately, diesel pumps have oversized nozzles, so that mistake is hard to make. Depending on the quantity of gasoline that's added to a diesel vehicle's tank, it could do little harm or it could damage the fuel pump, injectors, and other parts. If the mix-up is caught soon enough, a technician can limit the damage by draining the contaminated fuel. Meanwhile, don't run the engine.

5. Special sauce for your brakes. Brake systems use hydraulic fluid that's specially formulated for the purpose. Substituting transmission or power-steering fluid, which are similar to each other, can affect the seals, damage the system, and possibly cause brake failure. Note that if the brake fluid is low, your vehicle probably needs brake-system service anyway. Either the brakes are worn or there's a leak.

6. Glued-up gears. Automatic transmissions must only use the fluid specified by the automaker, such as General Motors' Dexron series or Toyota's Type T. Using the wrong fluid can cause poor lubrication, overheating, and possibly transmission failure. A mechanic might not be able to reverse the damage, even by flushing the transmission. Mistakenly adding motor oil or brake fluid can also destroy your transmission.

7. More washer-fluid no-nos. In addition to creating the perfect environment for deadly bacteria, water doesn't clean as well as washer fluid does and is subject to freezing. Using household glass cleaners or ammonia can leave suds on the windshield, damage a car's finish, and get into the air-intake system and create a potentially noxious environment in the cabin.

With more than 7 million print and online subscribers, Consumer Reports is one of the most trusted sources for information and advice on consumer products and services. It conducts the most comprehensive auto-test program of any U.S. publication or Web site and owns and operates a 327-acre Auto Test Center in Connecticut. The organization's auto experts have decades of experience in driving, testing, and reporting on cars.



Oil starvation...with a 5W???, I would like to see your evidence of that.

Excessive oil Psi causing "all sorts of problems and leaks". Again, I would like to see your evidence of that.

Failing your provision of facts, you are scaremongering with a bunch of non facts, or repeating non facts that you've read elsewhere.[/quote]
 
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Toad, that's definitely not going to be good enough. Even Mobil claims a minuscule gain in fuel economy going from a much heavier oil to their Advanced Fuel Economy formula.

Also, keep in mind that many cars spec vastly different grades of oil when used overseas and it wasn't too long ago that most vehicles had a chart with multiple grades on it in the manual that dictated what was appropriate relative to ambient temperature.

These topics have been covered exhaustively on the board.

BTW, the 5w-50 spec'd for the Track Pack Mustang GT? the non-Track Pack version of the same car (with the same engine) spec'd 5w-20
wink.gif
BMW has changed their recommendation to/from 10w-60/5w30 multiple times over the years for various M-cars.
 
Another. geeksoncars.com All of their claims are backed up with sources in their web page.

Does Using the Wrong Oil in a Car Hurt It?. Motor oil is the lifeblood of a car's engine, protecting the engine's interior from wear and friction. Viscosity refers to the oil's thickness and weight. Using the wrong viscosity compromises the engine's function and longevity.



Premature Engine Wear
Proper viscosity ensures that the oil is thick enough to lubricate the engine while cold and hot. Using the wrong weight does not provide the proper lubrication, causing the engine's parts to wear down prematurely.

Lack of Power
The engine requires the correct weight of oil to increase fluidity of the engine's moving parts. Therefore, without the proper lubrication and oil weight, the engine works harder to produce power than it would with the correct weight oil.

Reduced Fuel Economy
When the engine works harder, fuel efficiency is compromised. The wrong viscosity causes an engine to work harder, reducing fuel economy by 3 percent to 4 percent, according to trucktestdigest.com.

References
Autoeducation.com: What Do Oil Viscosity Numbers Mean?
Trucktestdigest.com: The Slippery Business Of Oil
Pressroom.consumerreports.org: What Happens If You Use The Wrong Fluids In Your Car?
 
Why not just follow the owner's manual? Don't you think the engineers know best? I don't get the logic. I really don't. I'm not that smart so I follow the directions. I've had good results in my life following owner's manuals and directions.
 
Originally Posted By: ToadU
Another. geeksoncars.com All of their claims are backed up with sources in their web page.

Does Using the Wrong Oil in a Car Hurt It?. Motor oil is the lifeblood of a car's engine, protecting the engine's interior from wear and friction. Viscosity refers to the oil's thickness and weight. Using the wrong viscosity compromises the engine's function and longevity.



Premature Engine Wear
Proper viscosity ensures that the oil is thick enough to lubricate the engine while cold and hot. Using the wrong weight does not provide the proper lubrication, causing the engine's parts to wear down prematurely.

Lack of Power
The engine requires the correct weight of oil to increase fluidity of the engine's moving parts. Therefore, without the proper lubrication and oil weight, the engine works harder to produce power than it would with the correct weight oil.

Reduced Fuel Economy
When the engine works harder, fuel efficiency is compromised. The wrong viscosity causes an engine to work harder, reducing fuel economy by 3 percent to 4 percent, according to trucktestdigest.com.

References
Autoeducation.com: What Do Oil Viscosity Numbers Mean?
Trucktestdigest.com: The Slippery Business Of Oil
Pressroom.consumerreports.org: What Happens If You Use The Wrong Fluids In Your Car?


This is all pretty elementary "consumer-geared" stuff you are posting. Basically advocating that running 20w-50 in Edmonton in the winter isn't the best idea and to follow the owner's manual. That doesn't mean that going from 5w30 to 0w30 is going to be a problem, or 10w30 to 0w30 or even a 0w-40. All of which are examples of alternatives with superior cold temp performance that, for somebody living in Edmonton, might be beneficial.
 
Originally Posted By: ToadU
Why not just follow the owner's manual? Don't you think the engineers know best? I don't get the logic. I really don't. I'm not that smart so I follow the directions. I've had good results in my life following owner's manuals and directions.


Generally following the owner's manual is safe, certainly, I'm not in disagreement with that.

Interesting example/food for thought here:

Most of the Euro marques don't spec a viscosity, they spec a certification/approval, which is often met by a variety of grades of oil. For example, BMW LL-01, which is the general approval required for the vast majority of BMW gasoline engines covers the following grades:

0w-30, 5w30, 0w-40, 5w-40

The same goes for the Mercedes and VAG approvals. In these cases it isn't the grade on the bottle that is important; all approved viscosities are appropriate, it is the approval; the guarantee of performance that is the important point.

So, given the above, an educated person could, within the range approved for their vehicle, be selective in oil choice that aligned more closely with their operation conditions. I would suggest a 0w30 or 0w-40 for our Edmonton example here due to the superior cold performance characteristics and the fact that a start at -40C (which is below the cold temp performance range for the 5w-xx designation) is a genuine possibility.
 
We were taking about a 5w50 which is not appropriate for any daily driver car and not spec'd by the owner's manual. Yes it's elementary because it's written to be idiot proof and written in third grade Enginish so even a moron can understand.

I was accused of pulling stuff out of my butt so I backed it up with facts from experts not the least of which is your owner's manual for your car. That's pretty definitive.

Edmonton isn't that cold. I assure you the manufacturers have taken all of the operating temperatures possible in North America into consideration. In the manual they will spec various weights of oils for various temperatures based in engineering, science and literally hundreds of thousands if not millions of miles of actual testing.

Don't make your car a test rig. Trust the engineering from the manufacturer and follow their recommendations.

Personally I think it's rather arrogant to think a random owner is smarter and and more knowledgeable than the people that actually designed the engine.

This by the way is one of the main factors that caused Alaska Airlines flight 262 to crash with the loss of all 88 people on board. The mechanics thought they were smarter than McDonnel Douglas that made the MD80 and started using a different spec'd grease in the jack screw assembly and longer greasing intervals than recdocmended. They thought what they were using was better for the plane than what was spec'd. Instead they have the blood of 88 souls on their hands.
 
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Originally Posted By: ToadU
We were taking about a 5w50 which is not appropriate for any daily driver car and not spec'd by the owner's manual.


You don't consider the Mustang GT a daily driver car, nor the GT500 version? And that grade is most certainly in the owner's manual for those cars as well as on the fill cap.

Originally Posted By: ToadU
Yes it's elementary because it's written to be idiot proof and written in third grade Enginish so even a moron can understand.


Yes, because car owners are, for the most part, completely ignorant about oil and lubrication as are the folks behind the counter at the parts stores.

Originally Posted By: ToadU
I was accused of pulling stuff out of my butt so I backed it up with facts from experts not the least of which is your owner's manual for your car. That's pretty definitive.


You backed it up with information geared for the common idiot, not really in-line with the general level of discussion that happens on this board where most of us are enthusiasts and know more about oil and lubrication than your common layman who doesn't know that 5w30 is not a viscosity.

Originally Posted By: ToadU
Edmonton isn't that cold.


Edmonton, Winnipeg...etc all get "that cold", cold enough that the 10w-xx and 5w-xx designations can be problematic. If you aren't familiar with how the cold portion of oils are graded, I suggest brushing up on CCS/MRV and what they mean relative to the safe cold temp range for a given grade.

Originally Posted By: ToadU
I assure you the manufacturers have taken all of the operating temperatures possible in North America into consideration.


They use a rough average that factors out extremes (like -42C) which allows them to recommend an appropriate compromise that should work well in basically all anticipated operating conditions. That does not mean this recommendation is optimal for conditions that fall on the far ends of the spectrum.

Originally Posted By: ToadU
In the manual they will spec various weights of oils for various temperatures based in engineering, science and literally hundreds of thousands if not millions of miles of actual testing.


Generally, in North America, this is no longer the case due to CAFE. They recommend a single "all encompassing" grade. The charts that referenced ambient are no longer present, though they are still in use in Europe I believe.

Originally Posted By: ToadU
Don't make your car a test rig. Trust the engineering from the manufacturer and follow their recommendations.


So, if the manufacturer spec's 5w-20 in the USA and 5w-40 in Europe, for the same car, what is one supposed to take away from that? Obviously both can't be optimal.

Originally Posted By: ToadU
Personally I think it's rather arrogant to think a random owner is smarter and and more knowledgeable than the people that actually designed the engine.


The people that built the engine didn't spec the oil. There are multiple factors that weigh-in here including CAFE, which is the driver behind the "single grade" we see now vs the range of grades that used to be present previously.

Originally Posted By: ToadU
This by the way is one of the main factors that caused Alaska Airlines flight 262 to crash with the loss of all 88 people on board. The mechanics thought they were smarter than McDonnel Diuglas that made the MD80 and started using a different spec'd grease in the jack screw assembly and longer greasing intervals than recdocmended. They thought what they were using was better for the plane than what was spec'd. Instead they have the blood of 88 souls on their hands.


That's a rather extreme example and not really in-line with what is being discussed here. As you've acknowledged, manufacturers have spec'd various grades of oil in the manual, so it isn't as cut and dry as everybody is going die if your oil cap says 5w30 and you use 15w40 when the manual for that engine showed 15w40 as an acceptable choice for that engine in the past. Some have spec'd right up to 20w-50.
 
What Toadu is saying is, if you maintain your vehicle according to the manual, it will last a very long time with quality service to the owner.
 
I have 6 quarts of the Castrol Edge formerly Castrol Syntec 5W50 that I picked up at a local store for 2 bucks a pop about a year ago. On the label it says, "Specially formulated for Classic Cars."I would think this would include many of classic cars from all the Big Three covering many of years?
 
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Not one of my vehicles is as-built by the factory. I build my own engines and I lubricate them with what works for the given internals. If I don't know something I'll ask.

ALL my vehicles are test beds because I have been a car enthusiast for over six decades. My vehicles (bikes, boats, cars, trucks, and 4x4's) are daily drivers and toys
laugh.gif


And I was professionally in marine engineering (diesel & gas power) for many years, after working in the petroleum transport business. That exposed me to a lot of knowledgeable people at the refineries and the blending houses...

I dunno about your backgrounds, but I know what I know ... And there is not one vehicle on the property with less than 100K miles on the drive train. Two with well over 200,000 and counting - I'd say that's a long time
smile.gif


I run anything from 5w30 to 20W-50 depending on application. I have access to Redline's home office about 45 minutes away, and I know two fellows at Chevron ... I'd say I was at least as knowledgeable as any run of the mill shop manager in an OEM service department. In some applications I'm absolutely sure I know quite a bit more.

Some of what I read above is not only 1/2 truths, it is misleading to others with less well established backgrounds
frown.gif


I do not have to deal with the frozen north, so I do learn about what works on this board from the folks up there when it comes to real cold starts. Around here the worst we get is in the teens occasionally.
 
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Broc thanks so much for sharing your CV and making this thread about you. Your specious argument is totally irrelevant.

The OP is not a marine engineer and not building his own custom one of a kind engines. The OP is not from Edmonton either. The OP doesn't know what's best to do hence he's posting here to acquire opinions and information. I'm guessing he's not a marine engineer.

The OP bought a used high milage fleet vehicle. I'm going to make an assumption a used fleet vehicle isn't a Shelby Mustang and doesn't have one your your secret sauce one of a kind hand assembled engines. I feel good about this assumption. Fleets have mundane daily drivers.

I stand by my and others suggestions don't put 5w50 and MMO in the engine. All of the other banter are really just string us in the weeds and not helpful to the OP. Let's be germain to the question.

I have backed up everything I have stated. Proper oil weights result in less wear, increase fuel economy and manufacturers state not to use oil and or fuel additives. That's all fact.

I'm not trying to be mean but I got called out and I backed up my statements and now all this ad hominem crud takes the focus.

OP good luck with your new car. Just follow the manual.
 
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Originally Posted By: ToadU
I have backed up everything I have stated. Proper oil weights result in less wear, increase fuel economy and manufacturers state not to use oil and or fuel additives. That's all fact.


It's NOT backed up at all.

A couple of motherhood hand holding statements written in third grade English, including how to manage your washer fluid provide no proof to your assertion that 5W50 will do any of the things that you ascribed to it.

I conceded fuel consumption, but your link to 4% is over the top.

try again.

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Fuel economy loss a couple of percent, probably lost in the noise.

Excessive wear on start-up, I would like to see your evidence of that.

Oil starvation...with a 5W???, I would like to see your evidence of that.

Excessive oil Psi causing "all sorts of problems and leaks". Again, I would like to see your evidence of that.

Failing your provision of facts, you are scaremongering with a bunch of non facts, or repeating non facts that you've read elsewhere.
 
Complain to Consumer Reports. It's their info and testing. They are a reliable source. And yes, what I posted and gave sources for does in fact say it can harm your engine. Yes, it's in third grade English. I'm sorry your having trouble understanding it. I will look for a documented kindergarten source but it might be hard to find and even if I found some simpler to understand sources you probably still wouldn't get it. Good luck with that 5w50. Ford and GM and Fiat should just fire their engineers and hire you as sole consultant. Think of the money they would save. Have a good night.
 
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