Why techs know nothing about oil

[AmishFury]

Originally Posted By: artificialist
I worked in the business until medical issues sidelined me in 2012. I knew many people who were skilled at repair, but they called Quaker State "Quaker Sludge" and blamed that oil. Although I didn't hear the Pennzoil myth as often, there were certainly a large number of people who feared the stuff.

Every time they did that, I would always remind them that engine oil has standards it must meet. If the engine got sludged, either the car was not maintained correctly, the car manufacturer specified an OCI that was too long, or the car manufacturer made some kind of error.

I remember once, the boss was the one who believed such an urban legend. This was back in 2008. We had a Dodge CTD come in for an oil change, and I brought out the Pennzoil 15w40 CJ4. He stopped me, and I asked "What's wrong? It meets the manufacturer's specifications." He then said Pennzoil 15w40 is junk, and ordered Shell Rotella 15w40. I had to be quiet because my job was already at risk.

Sometimes customers come in believing oil myths too. One guy came in with a F350 7.3 PSD, and he said he worried that the zinc was taken out of oils. I explained how API CJ-4 means there is less zinc, but they made up for it with other additives.

The other challenge is people who come in with cars that only accept full synthetic. They get really angry when they discover that. I usually get ordered to put conventional oil in their car, and can't override the order. This is one reason I am half glad to be sidelined by medical issues.


my favorite is the customer that thinks they know better than the manufacturer... their truck specs 7 quarts they only wanted us to put in 5... (and i just know this guy was doing it to be cheap... didn't want to pay for the extra 2 quarts)

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted By: artificialist
I remember once, the boss was the one who believed such an urban legend. This was back in 2008. We had a Dodge CTD come in for an oil change, and I brought out the Pennzoil 15w40 CJ4. He stopped me, and I asked "What's wrong? It meets the manufacturer's specifications." He then said Pennzoil 15w40 is junk, and ordered Shell Rotella 15w40. I had to be quiet because my job was already at risk.

The shell rotella and pennzoil 15W40 may have been the exact same oil.

 

[crazyoildude]

wow we are the engine builders for 5 towns in nj and see lots of the 6cyl dodge and toyota engines from the p.d.s the 4.6 fords are not seen here to much but the 6cly dodge seems to be a problem the hemi engines are not as good as the ford but are ok

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: dave1251
The shell rotella and pennzoil 15W40 may have been the exact same oil.

It's no different than people up here refusing to use Canadian Tire's house oils and prefer to buy Formula Shell, forgetting that's what tends to be in those Canadian Tire bottles.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: crazyoildude
wow we are the engine builders for 5 towns in nj and see lots of the 6cyl dodge and toyota engines from the p.d.s the 4.6 fords are not seen here to much but the 6cly dodge seems to be a problem the hemi engines are not as good as the ford but are ok


The hemi's are a great engine. My last one had over 270k when I totalled it and it consumed no oil between changes and saw nothing but dealer or great Canadian oil changes all its life with only conventional oils changed every 5000.
I will say that if neglected and during this period of neglect it develops hemi tick then start the countdown on either rebuild or reman.
Oil condition is of the utmost importance. And varnish,if too many layers develop the mds will malfunction. The darn things will even throw a code and cel if it senses the oil is too thick.
The hemi is the poster child for the importance of preventative maintenance and when properly maintained will last well beyond the the car built around it.
So to maximize a hemi's longevity its a pre-requisite to be a bitoger and OCD because this engine just has those sensitive components that cannot tolerate neglect.
The engine is pretty durable even at 500hp,but that seems to be the toothpick connecting rods limit and to surpass that level you need a forged rotating assembly. The blocks are withstanding 750 with boost and the heads with some port work can accelerate the exhaust gas exiting which increases the velocity of the incoming air.
Dodge may get a bad wrap however every dodge product I've owned was always reliable,and if something was going to fail they gave me ample notice to aquire the necessary resources to fix them.
And you gotta admit the torque from a hemi is certainly something. The powerband is so much different than my mustangs,especially the 4v. Those mod motors like rpm and they really shine after 3500rpm and revs to what feels like the moon.
My hemi at 1500rpm throws you in your seat,then at around 3000 rpm feels like its opening the 4 barrels but by 5000 rpm its over,but at 5000rpm in my mod is just getting into its groove.
I'll always love mustangs but I couldn't have found a better family sedan. 4 blizzacks for winter,or 2 knobbies on the rear and blizzacks on the front.

Hello heated seats.....winter won't stand a chance.

 

[84zmyfavorite]

Originally Posted By: Clevy

wow we are the engine builders for 5 towns in nj and see lots of the 6cyl dodge and toyota engines from the p.d.s the 4.6 fords are not seen here to much but the 6cly dodge seems to be a problem the hemi engines are not as good as the ford but are ok


The hemi's are a great engine. My last one had over 270k when I totalled it and it consumed no oil between changes and saw nothing but dealer or great Canadian oil changes all its life with only conventional oils changed every 5000.
You dont change Your own vehicles Oil?

 

[pscholte]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: crazyoildude
wow we are the engine builders for 5 towns in nj and see lots of the 6cyl dodge and toyota engines from the p.d.s the 4.6 fords are not seen here to much but the 6cly dodge seems to be a problem the hemi engines are not as good as the ford but are ok


The hemi's are a great engine. My last one had over 270k when I totalled it and it consumed no oil between changes and saw nothing but dealer or great Canadian oil changes all its life with only conventional oils changed every 5000.
I will say that if neglected and during this period of neglect it develops hemi tick then start the countdown on either rebuild or reman.
Oil condition is of the utmost importance. And varnish,if too many layers develop the mds will malfunction. The darn things will even throw a code and cel if it senses the oil is too thick.
The hemi is the poster child for the importance of preventative maintenance and when properly maintained will last well beyond the the car built around it.
So to maximize a hemi's longevity its a pre-requisite to be a bitoger and OCD because this engine just has those sensitive components that cannot tolerate neglect.
The engine is pretty durable even at 500hp,but that seems to be the toothpick connecting rods limit and to surpass that level you need a forged rotating assembly. The blocks are withstanding 750 with boost and the heads with some port work can accelerate the exhaust gas exiting which increases the velocity of the incoming air.
Dodge may get a bad wrap however every dodge product I've owned was always reliable,and if something was going to fail they gave me ample notice to aquire the necessary resources to fix them.
And you gotta admit the torque from a hemi is certainly something. The powerband is so much different than my mustangs,especially the 4v. Those mod motors like rpm and they really shine after 3500rpm and revs to what feels like the moon.
My hemi at 1500rpm throws you in your seat,then at around 3000 rpm feels like its opening the 4 barrels but by 5000 rpm its over,but at 5000rpm in my mod is just getting into its groove.
I'll always love mustangs but I couldn't have found a better family sedan. 4 blizzacks for winter,or 2 knobbies on the rear and blizzacks on the front.

Hello heated seats.....winter won't stand a chance.


I am glad you had a great experience but personal "experiences of 1" are not a reason to form an opinion on anything. I believe anytime you look at a commercial website and the recommendations are personal testimonials, you should worry. How many oil websites that post testimonials have the ones that say, "I had three xxx trucks in a row that needed new engines not long after the warranty expired and I used nothing but yyy oil? Possibly for every three hemi owners with a glowing experience are two that hated the engine. Not saying it is so, but pointing out the problem with testimonials.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: dparm
The fact that you tell people to stick to the manufacturer recommendation puts you way ahead of a lot of other mechanics, truthfully.

Absolutely. There is room for alternative suggestions under certain niche circumstances, but the vast majority of people and their vehicles are well served to stick to that advice.


Totally agreed. Special operation can need special care, we used to have to do that before the OLM became reliable.

Also, when warranty is involved, the manual provided with your car is Gospel. ANY deviation, even at the Stealership's advice can cause major issues...

 

[Garak]

That's exactly it, Steve. Deviations aren't so bad if you know the application and the consequences. Extended OCIs on the taxis weren't an issue, even under warranty. First off, the Chevy small block was a known quantity. Secondly, in the unlikely event that there were a problem, I could rebuild the engine myself more quickly and with less downtime (and hence cheaper) than if it were taken to the dealership for assessment and a rebuild on their schedule. Of course, on taxi service, one can burn through the warranty's mileage limit in a heck of a hurry.

But, that's a niche circumstance. I wouldn't dare try something like a conventional ILSAC rated lube in a new Benz, all the while following the OLM.

 

[sgvaibhav]

Hmmm, over here if the oil change were to be done from outside shop / lube shop and not from a dealer, then -----

This will be the common standards.

Any bulk 20W50 oil (conventional) - is meant as 5000 km oil
Any 10W40 oil (semi-synthetic) - is meant as 10000 km oil.
I still couldnt find 5W-30

Thats all i have seen from my observations and unending questions to many garages and lube shops.

 

[Garak]

While our outside shops and independents won't be using a lot of 10w-40 or 20w-50, there certainly is no shortage of shops, even in North America, that prefer an outdated grade like 10w-30 just for cost advantages alone.

 

[victorkoga]

Originally Posted By: crazyoildude
wow we are the engine builders for 5 towns in nj and see lots of the 6cyl dodge and toyota engines from the p.d.s the 4.6 fords are not seen here to much but the 6cly dodge seems to be a problem the hemi engines are not as good as the ford but are ok


We don't have 6 cylinder chargers they are all v8's and we have around 200 of them. The hemi is every bit as reliable as the 4.6 in the crown vics
and out performs it in every way

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: victorkoga
Originally Posted By: crazyoildude
wow we are the engine builders for 5 towns in nj and see lots of the 6cyl dodge and toyota engines from the p.d.s the 4.6 fords are not seen here to much but the 6cly dodge seems to be a problem the hemi engines are not as good as the ford but are ok


We don't have 6 cylinder chargers they are all v8's and we have around 200 of them. The hemi is every bit as reliable as the 4.6 in the crown vics
and out performs it in every way


And I'm still wondering how a rebuilder gets new Pentastar V6's for rebuild when most are under warranty???

But we all have our opinions. As Garak mentioned above, when you use the vehicle for work your perspective is quite different. I keep a mothballed rebuilt engine on a stand just in case one of my fleet takes a surprise dump on me. Downtime means HUGE lost revenue thus it's worth all my time and efforts to get the thing back out there making money!

Victorkoga, I have many contacts and clients in the local Sherriff's dept. and they all say the new Charger is kicking the CVP's arse in real world use. Plus a LOT more fun for the driver. I'm also betting the injury stats will improve markedly as the LX is a great structure with a lot of advanced safety features.

 

[victorkoga]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: victorkoga
Originally Posted By: crazyoildude
wow we are the engine builders for 5 towns in nj and see lots of the 6cyl dodge and toyota engines from the p.d.s the 4.6 fords are not seen here to much but the 6cly dodge seems to be a problem the hemi engines are not as good as the ford but are ok


We don't have 6 cylinder chargers they are all v8's and we have around 200 of them. The hemi is every bit as reliable as the 4.6 in the crown vics
and out performs it in every way


And I'm still wondering how a rebuilder gets new Pentastar V6's for rebuild when most are under warranty???

But we all have our opinions. As Garak mentioned above, when you use the vehicle for work your perspective is quite different. I keep a mothballed rebuilt engine on a stand just in case one of my fleet takes a surprise dump on me. Downtime means HUGE lost revenue thus it's worth all my time and efforts to get the thing back out there making money!

Victorkoga, I have many contacts and clients in the local Sherriff's dept. and they all say the new Charger is kicking the CVP's arse in real world use. Plus a LOT more fun for the driver. I'm also betting the injury stats will improve markedly as the LX is a great structure with a lot of advanced safety features.


Well the real complaint I have heard from deputies switching from the vic to the charger is the ride height. The vic is more like a truck in its utility you don't have to worry as much driving over medians and in the grass. The charger is lower and has splash shields under the car we have had more than a few torn off.

I test drive these cars after repairs so I have first hand experience with thier performance. The vic is slow compared to the charger and the suspension is unresponsive and gives a floating land yaht feel. The charger is the exact opposite it has bigger tires and brakes and way more power. The impala is a torquey fwdriver with poor reliability compared to the vic and charger .

The vic is actually a pretty safe car taking in to account the dated technology. The vic doesn't crumple in a front or rear accident all the hillbillies I work with think that's a great thing they don't understand all that energy is getting absorbed by the driver. Ford had to install a fire suppression system in some model year vics due to its affinity for catching fire when hit in the rear.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
I keep a mothballed rebuilt engine on a stand just in case one of my fleet takes a surprise dump on me.

He he, memories. I had a rebuilt Chev 305 and Olds 350 hanging around for a very long time waiting for any issues.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: victorkoga
Originally Posted By: crazyoildude
wow we are the engine builders for 5 towns in nj and see lots of the 6cyl dodge and toyota engines from the p.d.s the 4.6 fords are not seen here to much but the 6cly dodge seems to be a problem the hemi engines are not as good as the ford but are ok


We don't have 6 cylinder chargers they are all v8's and we have around 200 of them. The hemi is every bit as reliable as the 4.6 in the crown vics
and out performs it in every way


And I'm still wondering how a rebuilder gets new Pentastar V6's for rebuild when most are under warranty???
.


Exactly. Crazyoildude has made some very interesting posts,never able to substantiate many of his comments.

Anyways I'm more impressed every day driving my charger. What a great car. Handles great,awesome highway power,handles great at high speed.
I'm a ford guy but comparing the hemi to a 2v isn't really fair.

 

[cp3]

After talking with my son, I remembered this thread and thought I would add to it.

My son is in his first week of school for his mechanic's apprenticeship, first year. Well he tells me last night, his second full day, that the instructor was talking about oil changes. His theory on the subject was that anyone going more than 5000km or following an oil life computer for an oil change is crazy. Yes this is in 2013!!

I promptly asked if he wanted a copy of my 16000km run in the G5 to take in.

He didn't figure it was a good idea.

 

[RF Overlord]

Yeah, showing your instructor he's out of touch is not a good thing to do the first week.

I once had an argument with a marine-engine instructor who insisted that you absolutely CANNOT have two connecting rods and pistons on the same crank throw in a V8.